07-03-2008, 04:21 AM
But what if your prospective kid didn't want to cut her hair? Could she keep it tied up out of the way? A careful person can manage long hair and power tools but they do have to be aware of it.
Kurt Wilson
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A good place to start restoring community values:
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 Kurt Wilson 
07-03-2008, 05:37 AM
Jay,
Point taken about a living wage. What will you pay your 15-18 year old helpers? I have a friend who has worked in the building trades for 38 years. He is a contractor with a license and is a master cement mason and can build the heck out of a rock wall, but can do it all. He is happy with $25/hr. He has always paid his men well, btw. My question to you is: how does one afford to pay casual labor $20/hr.? I am not wealthy. Most of the day laborers I have had need absolute supervision. Even with that, they have made mistakes when I turn my back for a few moments. I can work circles around many of them and, often, have to in order to keep them working. It's exhausting having employees, if you ask me. While I totally agree with you that wages have not kept up with cost of living, especially in Hawaii, that means ALL wages have not kept up. Mine included. If one is wealthy, then, of course, I think you should pay what you can afford, especially for a GOOD worker or a skilled worker. If I had to pay casual labor $20/hr. I would not be able to hire anyone. april
april
07-03-2008, 05:57 AM
quote: quote: I believe Fitz was talking $15.00 - $18.00 per hour... I don't think he was talking about age. [  ]------- It is the way... the way it is.
07-03-2008, 12:13 PM
Hi all,
First answer. If hair is more important than learning a trade, there are other trades where hair is more valuable. I don't want any potentially horrible injuries. I've seen 'em, and working around tools is dangerous enough without taking unnecessary risks. It doesn't need to be buzz cut, but not long enough to get caught in anything. Secondly, Damon is right, I will start a teenage kid with no skills at 15 to 18 depending on level of hustle. That's a training wage for green help. It will be expected to learn quickly, but one isn't going to need to show up knowing anything much, except learning to read a tape measure, and that can happen on your own time before you show up. I don't think that's asking much, but what I'd ask, and it's evidence of a certain amount of willingness to learn. I agree with others who have made comments about the quality of labor one finds. True, but as far as I'm concerned someone who cannot work is worth zero an hour and I wouldn't hire at all. Someone who can work, I'd like to pay a living wage. I understand fully that wages have not kept up with living expenses for many. Of course that is the fundamental point of this post. I think it's simply a mark of good business to run your activities in a sensible, efficient, and profitable manner that one keeps busy, and can afford to hire real help. I don't think it's insurmountable at all. I'm not in a position to offer a kid full time work, but of the time I can offer, it will be well paid and profitable. A lot of it comes down to the details, but certainly, in many of the cases I'm aware of where some claim to not be able to "afford" to pay living wages, there is a reason. And the reason is often, even typically, an expensive lifestyle, a very large home, a new expensive car, vacations, large properties, and on down the line. Listen, we can all see through all that. It's friggen obvious it has nothing to do about being able to afford, because one is picking and choosing what is and is not being payed and where that money goes. Of course, I can't make anybody care, and many simply don't. But on the other hand, if some of us are actually semi-serious in easing the burdens that come from poverty and lack of opportunity, with simmering resentment, of racism, etc., making the personal choice and inevitable personal sacrifice to free up that personal cash to pay a living wage: I hardly thing there's a better way to start, and near nothing I could see to be more effective to start bringing community back together. So really, it's all up to us and what we value. I'm full aware one can present and win an argument--the hard thing is to get people to care. Some here proclaim to care, and I take that on faith. In a friendly manner I'd like to suggest perhaps fine tuning a bit some of that is offered up. Ultimately, of course, there are no secrets. What we really value is always evident in our personal actions.
07-04-2008, 06:06 AM
That's going to be one lucky 15 year old. Let me know how that works out for you.
april
april
07-04-2008, 11:00 AM
You know, honestly, I've done this sort of work for a long time now in several states, and the fact is that that's what's paid by quality builders. Again, read quality. That's the case here too, but some are playing mumm on this forum, and I understand why, but that's the truth.
Quality farmers do the same, as I remember my Grandpa doing that. It wasn't organic, but as a kid I'd see a peach the size of my head. A quality builder makes money by: Doing nice work for sensible money. Not making lots of trips to the store and back for stuff he forgot. Especially here, as a trip to town takes two hours and costs 100 bucks worth of time. Making sure all labor is running at 100% all the time. If you're making a trip to the store that's not the case. Building himself, not supervising flunkies. Not compensating for the fact that you don't know what you're doing by having big trailers, pickups and other crap all on borrowed money... as of course you'll have to charge to cover all that unnecessary nonsense. A lot of guys think they need to have that to look professional. No, the fact is people are a lot smarter than that. If YOU look professional, and know what you're doing, and don't blow smoke about what you don't, it's a very simple formula. Most importantly, doing nice enough work that the homeowner glows about what you've just done for such reasonable money that you're recommended all over the place. Charging one sucker 90 dollars an hour is no good, you'll starve, if you only work 8 hours a year. The key is doing nice work, for reasonable money, very fast and reliably. Not much else to it. If you've a good eye, that really is the icing on the cake. For most, if you can just follow blueprints that's good enough. In short being very efficient. That's of course the same everywhere and in any business. So, no, not too lucky, as there's others here I'm sure would hire at the same, again, for some reason playing mumm, but again, I understand why. If it's my role to be the firebrand, I won't shy from it. My dream here, really, and if anyone could help me out with it, well, THIS will go a long ways to restoring real community values too. I'd love get a boat building program here. Not some historical restoration blah blah nonsense but real boat building. The fact is Hawaii NEEDS boats, and boat builders are far and few between. What is more rare yet, is boat builders that build useful, practical, cost effective boats that are seaworthy and valuable, yet something a normal person can afford. THIS is a tradition that has been wholly lost. It could be done here. Thailand is becoming a big boat building region, of course New Zealand, but the fact is there is no reason Hawaii could not compete as a major industry. I do not have the capital to put such a program together, but I do have the reputation. Perhaps someone has an idea of how to work all of that out. I think it would pay. Heck, if anyone wants to learn this stuff, I'm building a boat in my front yard at the moment, designed specifically for Hawaii, and on those principles. I can teach sailmaking, rigging, boat building, or what have you. I don't do motors, and revile them. If you want to learn something, just give me a call!
07-05-2008, 03:50 AM
Jay,
I think we're talking apples and oranges here. Probably my fault for not reading carefully. You are talking about an employer who is doing/building something for profit. I am talking about help getting the blackberries out of the garden. Yes, I believe one should pay a decent wage in all circumstances. Particularly if someone is an efficient, knowledgeable worker. Good idea. I hope others take your idea seriously. If it catches on, it definitely will improve the community in so many ways. I don't believe in taking advantage of anyone in any way. april
april
07-05-2008, 09:19 AM
quote: sorry, i don't mean to be ignorant! but, are you considered an adult foster caregiver? i only ask because we may be doing some type of elderly foster care. we pay, or i should say, mom pays her current caregiver $15/hr. he's supposedly a certified nurses' aide (he seems bogus to me--that's another story). also, he has another client that pays him $20/hr. with the combined income from both clients, he makes close to 48k/year but i'm sure he doesn't report his income. malia paha o lohe aku perhaps they will hear
"a great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
w. james
07-05-2008, 12:33 PM
I don't know where to draw the line between profit/not for profit. All in all it comes down to what you can afford to pay. I don't think it has anything to do with funky accounting. As well, and more importantly in my mind, when hiring, it comes down to what a human being is worth. Again, we could debate that, but I think it's an evasion.
Not to bust anyone, but I guess I'd feel that I had so much work going on, on such a big place that I needed all this help, and I was so broke that I couldn't pay a living wage, well, I guess I'd think I was living beyond my means. I really do think it is that simple. I realize it's unpopular to say such a thing, and many would like me to shut up--but I really don't see any way to wiggle around it. And while it must be nice to exploit people to maintain such a lifestyle, I think it's unethical. Most people do. If you live on some big estate, in a huge house, no amount of gassing about your "service" to the community is going to make up for the fact that people think you're a jerk. They may smile and thank you for the wage you pay, but they hate you. They just can't show it, of course, because they've got to somehow eat that day. And of course, resentment, loss of community, anger becomes more prevalent, and it becomes asserted through crimes of varying sorts. Again, no one is required to care. Lots of people don't, and figure taking advantage of people who can't improve their lives and are stuck in poverty has been a big part of American way of business for a long time. And of course around the world too. A company that takes advantage of people, as well as people who take advantage of people, OBVIOUSLY gain an edge, as they retain more of their money, and tend to grow more wealthy and powerful as a result. Of course, we all know this. If you want to get rich, I'm not telling you a good way to do it. The question is really, if you care, for real, what should YOU do. I'm telling you what I think I should do, and do. Others may find different compromises, and most wont give a damn. Still, I think the issue is a powerkeg to some degree, because there is a powerful seething anger and resentment that floats just below the surface here, and it could get out of control fast. As people become more and more squeezed for money, it will only get worse. We should be concerned about that sort of thing, not just because treating people with the humanity they deserve is important, but that it may really be necessary to maintain a sensibly peaceful quality of life.
07-05-2008, 12:54 PM
There are also other ways of paying folks than money. Should you have a task that needs to be done that you can't do and there is someone who can do the task and perhaps there is something they can't do that you can then a trade could be made. Everyone would win on that one. I keep hoping someone will offer to do extreme weedwhacking in exchange for drafting but so far nobody's taken me up on it.
When I lived on boats, it was very typical for everyone to get together and help whoever had their boat hauled out to repaint the bottom paint. Then when your own boat was hauled out there was a ready made work crew. That can work for all sorts of projects, help someone with their work for an afternoon in exchange for them working on your work for an afternoon. This, of course, won't provide a living wage but if you can't afford to hire them they probably can't afford to hire you and this way everyone gets their work done. Kurt Wilson |
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