Speed traps on Hwy 130

[Guest]

{...Humph. Hey Damon, add this to your list of suggestions as you are advisory DOT council/commitee ??, correct?}

I'm watching this thread closely. It's been so active that it's hard to consume all at once.

I was thinking of posting every comment on my blog, but after just two posts, I said fuggetabbutit[^] to much work.

If you want to post a comment under one of the posts on the Highway 130 section of my blog, feel free to. []


-------
blog

[oink]

Roundabouts were constructed at several intersections in the area where I currently live. They seem to work fairly well, although none were installed on any roads that would be comparable to 11, 130 or 19. None of them remotely resemble the 11 / 130 intersection. They were all placed in intersections that were experiencing heavy volume, but were already 25 to 45 mph controlled zones.

I believe road widening, roundabouts, or any other method of improving traffic flow will have the same effect on increasing traffic. Crappy congested roads do, IMHO, have the effect of retarding the increase of traffic. If the highway situation is bad enough, fewer people will want to live there. Improve the highway situation, by whatever method, and the area will be more desirable to potential residents. This will lead to an increase in traffic volume

I'm confident there is much research to show that road widening results in increased traffic. I suggest that research, if objective, would show that any improvements, that improve traffic flow, will result in a later increase in traffic volume, regardless of the method of improvement. Of course all other variables would have to be accounted for, such as other growth controls.

As I don't have a Ph. D., and haven't done any formal research on the topic, I'm obviously talking out of my ass.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[DanielP]

Dr J: You never addressed my first 2 points.

I really don't have an issue with roundabouts or intersections. It just seems logical that a roundabout would have a limit as to how many vehicles can move through at any given speed because of having only 1 lane. What does that reliable data say to that question? And please be precise. Vehicles per hour. And also, How much acreage does a roundabout require? Does the fact that most of the intersections do not align figure?

My suggestions stand:

1st. Install metering lights to control speed and create breaks in the traffic flow during peak hours to facilitate those trying to turn on and off the highway. Relatively cheap and quick.

2nd. Start acquiring right of ways for future expansion of secondary roads and whatever is needed, be it roundabouts, widening, intersections, turn lanes on the highway. They all need room to construct that is not there now.

Of course Pele might just step in and make the discussion moot.

Drive with Aloha, Dan

[missydog1]

>>>Crappy congested roads do, IMHO, have the effect of retarding the increase of traffic. If the highway situation is bad enough, fewer people will want to live there.

Hmm, well I think this works better on the mainland. There is only one Hawai'i, and only two places in Hawai'i where land is truly affordable -- one being Puna and the other HOVE and other South Kona areas.

Add to that people buying land to build in Puna sight unseen or visited one or two times, and people are invested and the road has not prevented them.

If the prices were equal around the island, then I would agree that a bad highway situation would deter folks, but even then not so much.

I've been watching real estate on the island for six years (though not a realtor), and having been a buyer several times, I know that your price range makes the first cut as to location, then you start looking at other factors. Almost all properties have issues here and you will have to take on something that is less than ideal ... and most people get wrapped up in the appeal of the actual property.

Getting in and out of the property is a reality after you own it, but many people fail to accurately imagine what it will involve in day to day living before they leap.

I don't want to be argumentative here (and yet I am [:p] ) -- but I don't think that poor roads works to hold back population growth in Puna. Look at all the crazy building in the first half of this decade.

Tell someone from a cold winter area that the roads are a bit congested and you get back "at least I don't have to shovel snow to get on the road" and so forth. It is so little aggravation in comparison to what most mainlanders deal with on the roads.

Who feels the aggravation? I think it's going to be the long time residents who see it get more and more clogged -- NOT the newcomers. Newcomers might ask why it can't be improved, but that doesn't mean they will not move here anyway!

High prices and poor climate are two factors that really keep down population growth. We have a great climate, and if the prices soar then the local families are in dire straits.

Sorry, but I think the only thing that will keep Puna rural is if Kilauea comes this way and reminds everyone that maybe you shouldn't build really nice houses in the path of an active volcano. Twenty plus years of the flow going more or less the same direction has made people complacent; even the insurers and lenders loosened up about zones 1 and 2, and zone 3 has been treated as "safe."

However, I don't wish for that! Too many people would lose their homes, and having lost my own home to fire in the past, I know how bad it is.

Anyhow, I think if Puna turns down highway funds and rejects highway improvements, those who love Puna the most are the ones who will be feeling the pain of Hwy 130 staying as it is. People from LA will still feel like it's a huge reduction in driving stress. And people will get killed trying to get out on the road because there aren't traffic signals.

[oink]

quote:

---

Sorry, but I think the only thing that will keep Puna rural is if Kilauea comes this way ------------------------------------------Anyhow, I think if Puna turns down highway funds and rejects highway improvements, those who love Puna the most are the ones who will be feeling the pain of Hwy 130 staying as it is.

---

Interesting, I wasn't advocating the withholding of road improvements as a means of growth control, although that is advocated in some areas. Where I currently live such policy has been strongly advocated by many people. Fortunately, IMHO, such advocates are currently a minority on the County Commission. I was just taking issue with the esteemed Dr's "facts". I was also being a bit of the smart ass that I'm sometimes accused of being.

I still believe road conditions influence population growth. No doubt other issues will also have an effect, maybe to the extent of overwhelming the effects caused by road conditions.

Incidentally, multi lane roundabouts are not unheard of. I would advocate widening as well as experimenting with roundabouts. Use them where they work but widen the road with added turn and merge lanes where needed. If growth control is desired, use other methods.
However, I share some of the concerns previously expressed by JWFITZ regarding who might be most affected by such government regulations. I think his posting I'm referencing was in the PCDP topics.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[Rob Tucker]

I had an interesting conversation with the State DOT head of engineering regarding their proposals for Puna. He indicated that he had no interest in roundabouts and had the power to decline them. The interesting part is, when I described the DOT plans a "more cars moving faster" he agreed and offered the expert opinion that the billions spent in highway development for Oahu were in fact a failure. No matter how much money they spent on capacity (more cars moving faster) they ended up with too many cars moving slowly.

So now Honolulu is looking at light rail at $200 million a mile.

The PCDP transportation proposals are more concerned with safety than capacity and would like to see a large portion of the available funds go to alternative routes and improved connectivity. A big problem with Hwy. 130 is that it is the ONLY route. So of course it is crowded and will be as long as it is the lone roadway. If there was another route in, and out of, Puna the need to widen Hwy. 130 might be reduced. Another route is needed for emergency purposes as well.

Also, the local battle cry of "Keep Puna Rural" could be interpreted as concentrating on road safety rather than speed. I have heard people say they would like a high speed freeway into Puna but I do suggest we may well be at the waining days of the big V8 gas guzzlers and it is practical to not repeat Honolulu's road building history here in Puna.

Punaweb moderator

[topograph]

My concern with roundabouts is that if there is one aspect of driving that seems to elude us here in Hawaii, it is smooth merging. "A modern roundabout is designed such that vehicles in the roadway have right of way, and all entering vehicles on the approaches have to wait for a gap in the circulating flow. To maintain free flow and high capacity, yield signs are used as the entry control." (As per "A policy on Geometric Design of Highways and Streets", latest edition).

Not sure what head of engineering Rob was talking to, but I was in a design meeting last month with the head of DOT as well as the head of the design branch where it was decided to put in a roundabout for a Maui highway, instead of a signal.

Joelle (AKA armchair engineer, in that I am a civil engineer, sitting at a desk chair with arms [])

[james weatherford]

[quote]Originally posted by KathyH

... left turns..."

Left turns is exactly a key improvement roundabouts make.

Confusion? That is often a concern before installation and consistently overcome within days after installation.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[james weatherford]

Here's how I have conducted research on roundabouts:

First, always exclude the word 'blog'.

Then, search for these key words: roundabout, safety, death, injury, cost, traffic, signal, road, intersection.

That'll get one informed.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[gtill]

Dr J, how many of the roundabouts do you propose for 130 to Pahoa? And what will the speed limits be before and during the turns? How would a loaded gravel truck do speedwise without spilling, especially on his return to straight?

One has been converted as such in Carlsbad Cal., and on a 25 mph, tree lined street with considerable cross street traffic, it worked well, and prettied up the intersections. But that was a 25 mph zone both ways.

On 130, that would be ridiculous, with our mix of trucks etc. each circle would break your momentum and you have to accelerate and slow down for each one. Plus the extra tire wear from all the unnecessary turning, or do we slow to 15, and accelerate to 50 how many times, wasting gas and polluting the environment. That's if you don't get stuck behind a loaded semi and get to breathe his fumes while getting back to speed.

Sounds to me like somthing an oil baron would pull off. How many turns?