Farm dwelling or ohana?

[csgray]

I have a question for the experts out there: can an additional house be built on a Hawaiian Paradise Park lot when the fully permitted pre-existing house is only 576 sq. feet? Would it be possible to build a bigger house and keep the smaller one as an ohana or farm dwelling? I know that HPP is zoned agriculture and that there is a size limit on "farm dwellings" but I am not really sure of what is and isn't possible.
Mahalo

Carol

[Hotzcatz]

If you can somehow take 76 square feet off of that existing dwelling and remove the stove (a kitchen consists of a sink/stove/refrigerator and a dwelling has a kitchen) then you can get a change in use and it can become a guest house and then you can build a new dwelling on the property.

[oink]

I believe the 76 can stay under roof. It needs to become uninclosed porch. You will need to get a demoliton permit for the kitchen part and I think the kitchen sink will have to go too. You may need a demolition permit for the 76 to porch conversion. Depending on the layout it should be reasonably doable.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[missydog1]

To answer some more of your question:

I don't believe there's a size limits on farm dwellings (the size limit is on guesthouses), but it doesn't matter because the chances of getting an additional farm dwelling permit in HPP are slim at this time. I have talked to Planning about the areas where they feel farm plans are potentially genuine and where they are mostly attempts to end run the zoning, and HPP is the latter.

Obviously if you bought an existing farm with income that would be different.

Ohanas are not allowed on ag land. Ohanas are for residential zoning that exceeds a certain lot size.

So you are down to enlarging the original house, adding a guesthouse or a detached bedroom (no kitchen), or converting the existing into one of those two, as people are explaining.

It is a problem when people put a small house on ag land that is not truly farm land. They are a little bit stuck when it comes to having a larger house, if the existing house isn't what they want.

Even though there are tons of illegal ohanas and second units in HPP, the current climate at zoning is totally against approving any more building with that potential. They are getting real sticky about bar sinks or anything that could form the nucleus of a second kitchen and be turned into a separate unit.

btw, you didn't say if you are considering buying this property or already own it, but if the former -- unless the lot is unique, and if you want a property with two units, you should look around because they are there. Some are even legal from the days when they gave out permits without too much thought.

If you mostly want THIS lot but want to build a custom house, then you have to get a bit creative and modify the small house.

You can build a detached bedroom if it's 50 feet or less from the main structure. It cannot have a kitchen but it doesn't have the 500 square foot enclosed space limit of a guesthouse. It can be big.

So basically
if you can live with the 50 foot distance, you only have to demo the kitchen.
If you want more separation, you have the size limit and have to demo the kitchen.

[Kapohocat]

While denying AFDA's is the direction Planning is trying to head in HPP, if indeed you have a farm plan, you have a business license, you make income from your farming, you can get a AFD because that land is in fact zoned ag. You cant bulls**t them. They do come out and check, especially in areas like HPP.

This may also change if we have a change in the guard too.

Although ohanas are allowed only in residential areas zoned "urban" such as HB's lots over 10,000 SF, you do have a few options for what you might be trying to accomplish.

Do you really need a farm worker? Is this a dwelling grandma is going to live in to help with grandchildren so you can farm? Do you just need more space and this is going to be anything but residential living space? Is this just somewhere to live while you build new?

Although PD would like to crack down, with the economy going the way it is - more people will have to farm for just sustinence.

YOu can do any of the above suggestions - enlarge original structure, change use from SFR to guesthouse and cut down to <500 SF - outside dimension. Change designation to bedroom and eliminate kitchen if less than 50' from new site and then yes can be nmore than 500'.

and also :
Get a demo permit and tear down the whole thing and start over.

I just had a client that has permitted a artist workshop and also a "office" for his wife in HPP. Both resemble "ohana's". But we got them through. (and they really are for the purposes submitted). There was already a main SFR on the lot.

Catherine Dumond
Blue Water Project Management
http://bluewaterprojects.blogspot.com/
808 965-9261
"We help make building your dream home a reality"

[csgray]

We don't own this place but we were looking at it. The lot is very nice and the house is junky, but not bad enough to be a tear down, it also is poorly sited, right by the road and facing away from the view. We have an adult daughter who might be moving over, so the second house aspect had appeal, as did the concept of being able to live on site while building our dream home. My SO is a horticulturalist so we could pull off an ag plan, but this lot's charm is the natural forest, so clearing it to grow stuff would defeat the purpose. Thanks for all the info, very helpful anyway.

Carol

[David M]

So is this incorrect?

Division 3. Ohana Dwellings.
Section 25-6-30. General provisions, applicability.
Ohana dwellings shall be permitted on a building site within the RS, RA, FA and A districts; provided that: (
a) The building site is a legal lot of record as determined by the director;
(b) Any building site which is within the State land use agricultural district shall be subject to agricultural
requirements for farm dwellings as established by ordinance or by rule of the director, adopted pursuant
to chapter 91, Hawai‘i Revised Statutes;
© All applicable provisions of this chapter are met, including but not limited to, height limits, minimum
yards and parking; and
(d) The following public facilities are adequate to serve the ohana dwelling unit:
(1) Sewage Disposal System. The building site shall be served by a public or private sewage disposal
system. An adequate public sewage disposal system shall meet with the requirements of the
department of public works and an adequate private sewage disposal system, cesspool or septic tank
shall meet with the requirements of the State department of health.
(2) Potable Water Supply. The building site shall be served by an approved public or private water
system meeting with the requirements of the department of water supply which system can
accommodate the ohana dwelling and the main dwelling unit. An ohana dwelling that is not served
by an approved public or private water system may use a water catchment system provided that the
director determines that there is sufficient annual rainfall in the area to accommodate a water
catchment system and water catchment system meets the requirements of the department of health
and the department of water supply.
(3) Fire Protection. The building site shall be served by adequate fire protection measures meeting with
the requirements of the fire department.
(4) Streets. The building site shall gain access to a public or private street meeting with the
requirements of the department of public works.
(1996, Ord. No. 96-160, sec. 2; ratified April 6, 1999.)25-6-30

David

Ninole Resident

[missydog1]

David,

clause b) takes away the automatic right to permit an ohana on ag land, by making your permit subject to an approved farm plan.

The farm plan must demonstrate a present and foreseeable need for "help" on the farm for a designated minimum number of hours a week. In other words, it's not just about producing income. The need for a laborer in residence must be established. The laborer can be one of your family. It cannot be Grandma who is 80.

A residential ohana can be and often is a true mother in law unit.

[David M]

Thanks Kathy
Guess I'm just confused and don't understand "state land use ag" vs county ag designation.

Unless changed, the labor requirement for farm dwelling is 16 hrs/week for the 1st unit, additional 40 hrs/wk for a 2nd unit. I had an info packet last year when my brother in law was considering same.

David

Ninole Resident

[kani-lehua]

here's a useful link: http://www.hawaii-county.com/planning/rules.htm

is this the information that you had david?

"chaos reigns within.
reflect, repent and reboot.
order shall return."

microsoft error message with haiku poetry