Hilo gas prices continue to fall

[Charles Moore]

There appears to be some competition coming from electric cars. With battery exchange stations in Hilo, Kona, Naalehu? and Waimea? Probably will be charging points around the island as well.

http://www.betterplace.com/hawaii

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/12/hawai...-141661860

[Guest]

Awesome electric cars!
Let's see, charge led-acid or lithium ion batteries that have a finite number of life cycles and weigh a ton with some of that cheaply produced Helco electricity that is produce in an oil burning plant.

You lose energy every time you convert it.
You lose when you burn it to create steam,
then you lose more when you generate electricity with steam,
you lose more when you transfer electricity over power lines to the charger,
then you lose more when you charge a battery
then you lose when you run an inductive load / motor from a battery,


So at the end of the day those electric cars will effectively get 5 mpg.

[gtill]

The weak end of electric here are the storage, production practices and controlling waysof HELCO over the alternate producers. With present methods I agree, electric here is a joke.
However the battery, capacitor and motor part is improving, and will one way or the other be the new source of power. Whether hybrid or fuel cel, the final electric drives are working well, with fewer moving parts, lighter, more power etc.
Geothermal would be the key, and it can provide. Just have to oust HELCO!

[Charles Moore]

I would agree with your points esnap and gtill, as to the weaknesses of how electricity is generated here. However the
Betterplace company specifically states having negotiated a contract with HECO to supply renewable energy in the amount necessary to charge their electric car batteries. In effect the batteries become the storage. So in theory the weak point of renewables (storage and excessive energy conversion steps) is largely bypassed . From the info I've seen, well to wheels efficiency of electric beats ICE everytime. Hawaii is a special case with its 3x price of electricity. Economically ICE probably beats Electric vehicles here in Hawaii if using the current oil fired grid power, but start throwing renewables on the grid in an amount close to your storage capacity in batteries and (I think) electric cars become the winner.

ESNAP: 5 MPG? C'mon. Even the heaviest ass electric car gets the equivalent of 50 mpg. See Neil Youngs electron guzzling Lincoln Continental.

[gtill]

Charles, HECO is in Honolulu, and probably thinks their product is cheap. It's cheaper than here, HELCO is tops, and they're getting applause for their "alternative" solutions, albeit at our misery come billtime. They have the cost this high to attract and keep enough alt's fat and happy at a small scale, no one steps out of line and only HELCO gets fat. No one can use the economics of scale to increase their production and sell more cheaper.
Geothermal, right now could supply the entire island with solid non intermittant supply, but HELCO say they couldn't transmit same if we had it because of lousy lines(very true). As long as there's a monopoly on juice, we'll keep getting screwed.
Mabe one thing to help, if all politicians in the state had to recuse themselves from voting on any energy related matters if they hold stock in any state protected monopoly company (or their immediate family).
And with the new prez's statment about rebuilding infrastructure, it might even be a chance to get buried lines.

[Charles Moore]

Thanks for the insights and correction. I always assumed the high electric rates were mainly due to the small scale and having to import fuel for power generation. Should have known there were politics and greed involved.

Speaking of geothermal, I attended a Hawaii Sustainability 2050 meeting in Keauhou awhile back during which a Stanford University team presented its recommendations for Hawaii county sustainable grid power (among other stuff).

Three points I remember were
1. Double geothermal output
2. Offer feebates for plug-in hybrid electric cars
3. Build 60MW pumped hydro wind farm at Lalamilo Wells (near Waikoloa village)

Wonder whats become of these ideas and wether it will result in lowered costs for us.

[Guest]

quote:

---

ESNAP: 5 MPG? C'mon. Even the heaviest ass electric car gets the equivalent of 50 mpg. See Neil Youngs electron guzzling Lincoln Continental.

---

You are right if don't consider all the loses up to the energy the motor uses.

lets say you have 5 gallons of fuel oil in Longbeach Ca.
You pump it onto a ship. (cost energy)
You ship it to Hawaii. (cost energy)
You pump it to the power station. (cost energy)
you burn it it to create steam. (energy loss)
You use the steam to turn a turbine, (energy loss)
You turn a turbine to create electricity. (energy loss)
You send the electrity into the grid. (energy loss)
You then run a batterry charge (energy loss)
The battery is charged (energy loss)
The battery sits idol when not in use (energy loss)
You draw power from the battery. (energy loss)
you power a motor. (energy loss)

You see, when you burn fuel in an internal or external combustion engine, you are converting the potential BTU's into horse power. no engine is 100% effecient. you lose power to heat. diesels are very effecient but you have to burn 3 hp worth of fuel to get 1 horse power.
1 Horse power is equal to 740 watts. when you use 1 horse power to turn a generator, you never get 740 watts. Typically the rule of thumb is 500 watts or 2HP to 1 Kw. When you transmit power through a wire, there is a thing called resistance, so you lose some more there. then when you charge a battery up so it has say 1000 Amp hours it actually takes more juice to charge a battery than you get back out of it.

Then if you have, say 10 units of power in a battery you will never be able to get 10 units of work from a motor powered by said battery.

All the sudden that 5 gallons of fuel oil only gives you a fraction of the energy that could have powered a VW tdi enough to go 200 miles.
Nope, now you can only drive that electric car maybe 60 miles and it is a real POS death trap of a car.

Hey, I don't make the laws of physics, I just have to live by them.

Here is another thing to ponder:
If Helco set up where they used nothing but Solar, Geothermal, and Wind, Helco's rates would probably stay the same or maybe even go higher.

There is no free lunch.

Even if you build and maintain your own solar/wind setup electricity still is not free. you have to maintain replace parts etc.

Texas is one of the leaders in wind power, You can actually opt in and and by power that is wind generated. Oh, but one thing, it cost more than power made with coal or natural gas..

I am all for wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, bio-gas, etc. I just know that it will cost, nothing is free.

All this BS pie in the sky free energy is crap. There are no 200 mpg carburetors.

[Charles Moore]

Yes I understand the energy losses to power an EV especially here in Hawaii. And we are at a disadvantage compared to the mainland when trying to power EV's from the grid. But I'm not willing to concede that it is futile just yet. Lets take these simple examples to prove both your point and my point. An average 3200 pound EV will get around 4 to 5 miles per kilowatthour. To go 40 to 50 miles would require 10kwh. A better than average efficiency ICE car (similar in size to the electric car) getting 45mpg (probably closer to 30mpg) will require one gallon of gas to go the same 45 mile distance.

So lets compare the cost to go 45 miles in the electric vs. the ICE car at different electric rates and different gasoline costs.

At Hawaii current gas and electric prices ICE wins.
electricity @ $.32/kwh = $3.20
gas @ $2.70/gal = $2.70

At Hawaii gas and electric prices (about 6 months ago)ELECTRCIC wins.
electricity @ $.32/kwh = $3.20
gas @ 4.50/gal = $4.50

At mainland (average)current gas and electric prices ELECTRIC wins.
electricity @ $.12/kwh = $1.20
gas @ $1.90/gal = $1.90

At mainland (average) prices about 6 months ago. ELECTRIC wins.
electricity @ $.12/kwh = $1.20
gas @ $3.90/gal = $3.90

So even with all the inefficiences with producing power here and the high cost of electricy, electric cars still wins on price to power up when gas is expensive. You are correct that TODAY ICE beats electric here on price to power up (given the numbers I provided). I did not factor in off peak rates (would favor EV's) cuz I don't know what they are. Also I think the 45mpg is a extremely generous figure for the ICE car. I included mainland prices to show how electric cars are an even bigger winner there and potentially could make more sense here if rates would ever decrease here.

[Charles Moore]

O.K. here is a real world electric car compared to its real world ICE counterpart. The Mitshubishi i-MIEV electric car is
based on the Mitsubishi Colt 660cc city car which gets 55mpg. The Electric i-MIEV goes 6 miles on 1 kwh or 55 miles on 9.1 kwh.

Therefore to go 55 miles in Hawaii each car would require:

Electric: 9.1kwh @ $.32/kwh= $2.91

ICE: 1 gal @ $2.52/gal (current Hilo gas price) = $2.52




To go 55 miles in Virginia each car would require:

Electric :9.1kwh @ $.06/kwh = $ .55

ICE: 1 gal @ $1.61/gal = $1.61


http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/19/...iev-stats/

[Guest]

Well it is no wonder, What do you think they produce electricity out of in good ol' Virginny?

Here are two hints, we have a vast supply, and it ain't oil.

Welcome to the feast, would you like some black lung to go with that?

You have just proved what an excellent and cheap source of energy coal is.