Hilo gas prices continue to fall

[Charles Moore]

To whom it may concern:

I'll say it again...these are the ONLY TWO POINTS I am focusing on because some of you were making the point that electric cars have efficiency and fuel cost problems. THEY DO NOT.

1. ELECTRIC CARS ARE BEST IN FUEL TO WHEELS EFFICIENCY
2. ELECTRIC CARS ARE BEST IN WELL TO WHEELS EFFICIENCY (except present day Hawaii and probably some other remote areas)

Is anyone going to concede/debate just these points???

If you are arguing other points, you are making STRAWMAN arguments.

JON:

"are you only trying to achieve a cost savings by going to electric? Or are you trying to save natural resources? Or reduce pollution?"

No. I am trying and succeeding in proving points one and two.


JWFITZ:

"The Plant to Wheels efficiency to my mind is nearly irrelevant, because a vehicle must store its fuel somehow and carry it"

Plant to wheels efficiency is COMPLETELY RELEVANT to points one and two I made above. If you're arguing that "Plant to Wheels efficiency" is a nearly irrelevant part of the overall cost of operation/ownership of electric vehicles or some other similar argument than you are probably correct and have no disagreement from me.

JWFITZ:

"new technologies must bear the inefficient start up costs of new infrastructure, as in a much more powerful transmission grid"

A DOE study shows we could have 80% electric car penetration with no changes to the current grid. 80% electric car penetration is a ways off I think.

ESNAP: I don't disagree with any of your last intelligent post. Also, I dont think electric cars are quite ripe yet because of battery costs, ranges, vehicle costs, recharge times etc. But efficiencies (especially fuel to wheels) of electric cars are so strong that automakers are scrambling to solve those other problems.

[JWFITZ]

So far I'm only hearing assertions and I'm not sure it's constructive. I'm not opposed to the electric car idea, I simply don't believe the data that's offered mostly to sell electric cars.

Let's consider a very particular case example and an important real world one. Let's consider the relative efficiencies of a EV that has the capacity to carry 1000 pound payload, and let's run it 20 miles up the highway at 50 mph, from Hilo to Volcano, with an altitude gain of 4000 feet. Is a gasoline engine or an electric vehicle a more efficient option in that scenario? If we muddy the waters with flat driving, or city driving, or other scenarios, it becomes much more difficult to make valid comparisons. Let's start with one concrete example and constructively go from there.

[Jon]

I am not opposed ether.. I kinda like the idea...

Charles...

what FUEL are you talking about? Oil? LP? Natural Gas? Coal? the conversion to electricity each of these may be different, so how could you say the efficiency is the same? And if you take the average conversion efficiency and subtract all the losses, you want me to believe that its more energy efficient then a ICE?

From what I can find thermal power plants run at 36 - 48% efficiency
An ICE runs at 18-20% efficiency

Transmission loss for high voltage is around 7.2%
Transformer loss is around another 5%
Loss of charging the battery as much as 70%? (need to find better numbers here I bet its more like 20-30%)
and I am sure I am missing some things...

By the time all that's done.. my 19 MPG Jeep may still be the better choice.


Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[robguz]

When I moved here 11 months ago gas was the same price as in Oakland, CA. Now it is 75 cents more than there!

[Charles Moore]

JON:

It doesn't matter which fuel. Also you continue to debate about fuel shipping, powerplant efficiencies and fossil fuel to electricity conversions, transmission line losses etc. Considering those stages is somewhat more complicated than simply using the well known and published COSTS of electricity and gasoline. I admit this method is not a dead nuts accurate measure of overall well(coal or crude in the ground) to fuel (electricity or gasoline ready to be put into your car) efficiency, but the COST of electricity and gasoline should fairly closely reflect the inherent inefficiencies in all those stages.

Having said that, JON and JWFITZ, the Mitshubishi i-Miev and its .66 liter (660cc) gasoline powered twin I previouly mentioned is the closest to real world example of well to wheels energy efficiency comparison I can think of. By using the cost of electricity and the cost of gasoline you effectively eliminate the need to do well to fuel conversion efficiency calculations. And then by calculating the cost per mile to drive each vehicle you effectively eliminate the need to do fuel to wheels conversion efficiency calculations.

So really there are only three things to question in the i-Miev and its gasoline twin comparison :

1. 55mpg claimed rating of the gas powered car
2. 1 kwh (kilowatt hour) claimed power used for a 6 mile journey.
3. Is the 1 kwh they are quoting the amount pulled off the grid or the amount drawn from the battery.

Even if you don't believe the electric car numbers. Try plugging in your own numbers. Increase power used by 15%. Decrease range by 15%. The results still heavily favor the electric car (except present day Hawaii).

If I had the two Miev's I could do my own test. All you need is a KILLAWATT power meter to do your own very accurate measurements. You could calculate energy used for both gas and electric and do a direct comparison of energy used (1 gal gas = 33kwh). And also do a cost comparison. And we could do the Volcano run and see what happens .





HERE IS THAT PREVIOUS MIEV COMPARISON POST AGAIN:

O.K. here is a real world electric car compared to its real world ICE counterpart. The Mitshubishi i-MIEV electric car is
based on the Mitsubishi Colt 660cc city car which gets 55mpg. The Electric i-MIEV goes 6 miles on 1 kwh or 55 miles on 9.1 kwh.

Therefore to go 55 miles in Hawaii each car would require:

Electric: 9.1kwh @ $.32/kwh= $2.91

ICE: 1 gal @ $2.52/gal (current Hilo gas price) = $2.52




To go 55 miles in Virginia each car would require:

Electric :9.1kwh @ $.06/kwh = $ .55

ICE: 1 gal @ $1.61/gal = $1.61


http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/19/...iev-stats/

[Jon]

LOL... if the true cost was less than 1 third, they would be selling like hotcakes........

Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Kapohocat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by esnap...
Conserve, conserve, conserve. Turn everything off except what you absolutly have to use at the time you use it.....Wash dishes...by hand.

---

I thought this is one area where washing dishes with a dishwasher saved electricity (full load, efficient dishwasher) than washing same full load by hand?

Is this not true?

[Charles Moore]

Go ahead laugh all you want. After you're good and laughed out, answer this... do you still doubt the lower fuel cost or improved fuel efficiency? Which facts and/or figures are you stuck on. The non hotscakes selling pace is due to other reasons...fuel efficiency is not one of them.

[Jon]

Yes, I do still doubt, the cost is not lower...

Fuel efficiency is based on how the Fuel us used.

I live in the real world, I like to think that things will change, when PV or wind power or maybe even nuclear gets to the point where its .05 a kWh everywhere... then it might have a chance... but my guess is before that happens gas will be down to 50 cents a gal or less.




Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Charles Moore]

Your contempt for facts, logic, science and math are growing tiresome.