Geothermal

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by rbakker

They do? Please provide a link from a reputable source.

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Contact:
University of Texas
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
You can even contact PGV’s own consulting engineers in California

Do not contact anyone in any capacity located on Hawaii, as they appear to be prohibited from discussing any findings that might raise a concern. If you ask about good things they will talk, ask them about any of the outside scientific documented concerns and they have no comment or have not seen the report even after 10 years and a signed receipt that they received a copy. But the best is person A saying the report was already dismissed by person B, person B said it was proven wrong by person C, and person C claims it was proven false by person A. Of course person A insists they didn’t read any report because person B already dismissed it, and round and round it goes.

It does not mean these reports are absolute proof of medical problems, but it should raise a question as to why if independent studies pointed to a potential medical concern, Hawaii says otherwise simply because they never looked into it.

[rbakker]

So, no links from reputable sources, so far.
As they say, the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data".
It would have to be a conspiracy of the company, the government, and the newspapers.

Blind, irrational fear comes into play yet again.

[Bob Orts]

LLNL established the maximum safe single exposure to hydrogen sulfide. Hawaii has not disputed that level, but they also refuse to acknowledge that although this is the maximum single exposure level, long term exposure at slightly lower levels could have a cumulative unsafe effect on residents. That this long term exposure could and may have resulted in items already mentioned. Hawaii has stood on only the signle maximum exposure and has never done anything to look at the whole picture.

The EPA investigation showed that PGV has exceeded the maximum safe levels several times and was off the chart during the June 1991 blow-out. Hawaii claims the exposure levels were no higher than registered anywhere else with no ill effects on people in other parts of the island. The EPA determined that Hawaii was basing it's readings on faulty data and Hawaii had no idea what the readings were anywhere, so Hawaii’s conclusion of no harmful health effects was baseless. Now, years after the heath issues were raised, we learn that Hawaii was only looking at the health effects of sulfur dioxide not hydrogen sulfide which is what the people around PGV was exposed too. Hawaii deliberately or through incompetence was looking at the wrong trigger.

The University of Texas report showed that there was a direct relationship to health hazards the closer to the plant people resided. There was an elevated number of illnesses and issues that were concentrated around the plant. Hawaii disputed the report saying on that their review produced no data to show that any heath problems were due to exposure from releases at PGV. What Hawaii didn't say was that the data they used was no data. Naturally it showed nothing because it was a blank sheet.

When Senator Inouye attempted to get federal funds for this, one official determined this project was layered in non information that it was like asking people to eat uranium to power their household electronics but claiming that no deaths were occurring because they never studied the deaths. Another opinion was that there is evidence of resident suffering severe health problems, but Hawaii has chosen to throw those reports away and claim no credible evidence exist. The Feds refused the money for PGV.

But the most damning blow was by Harry Kim himself who said that Hawaii's credibility on PGVs health risk is zero. He basically said that the reports by the outside agencies on heath risk were valid and Hawaii was full of sh*t.

Now you asked if there was a conspiracy of the company and government, Former Mayor Kim thinks so. The EPA said so. The University of Texas proved it. As for the newspapers, at that time, they were under intense pressure from Jack Dean, Bruce Anderson and Inouye to paint PGV in the best light for the benefit of Hawaii. As a result, most now admit that they knew something stinked but agreed to always include a counter claim by government so PGV wouldn't be shut down.

Many of the ill back then are not around today. Some speculate they were paid off, others speculate they just moved away. Regardless, the University of Texas study did show that there were actual verifiable illnesses near the plant in concentrations greater than anywhere else on the island, and that no data showed any such similar effects before the plant. The most likely source of the illnesses was the plant. Every outside independent organization that has looked at this said that prior to 2001, something was going on with the health of the people near the plant and recommended that the Hawaii dept of Heath, the only state agency that has the authority to investigate, to find out happened. To date, they have refused.

Now, remember, the PGV of today isn’t the same as the PGV of yesterday and this is not an argument over the value of geothermal. We as civilized people recognize that technology changes and things get better. But, that doesn't mean what was going on from 1975 - 1995 didn't cause health risk as shown in the independent reports just because government choose not to study it.

[missydog1]

hi rbakker, I was going out and didn't have TIME to find you links, so suggested you run a search. I was not dodging it ...

I ran a simple search "puna geothermal hydrogen sulfide" (with some 900 results)
Some other keywords would have been "health chronic exposure studies"

The Brimstone Battles, a Houston Chronicle Special Report
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/n...awaii.html
Dr. Legator's work got respect from Harry Kim, as Bob Orts said.

Study by Dr. Legator of UT, from "Archives of Environmental Health"
Health Effects from Chronic Low-Level Exposure to Hydrogen Sulfide.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/sum...913517_ITM

free article but must register for library card to read entirety

Summary of the lawsuit filed after the 1991 blowout
http://forests.org/archive/america/hawaii2.htm

A 2998 article from WHT that sums up the history of opposition, early problems, and the health study done by a doctor from Georgia.
http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/...ocal01.txt

Excerpt that describes outside doctors position and rebuttal by UH:

quote:

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State records confirm that the '91 blowout was the largest incident of its kind in PGV's history. But a 1996 report by Environmental Protection Agency listed 19 occurrences of gas releases by PGV between February 1991 and May 1996 and marked the plant as a significant source of hydrogen sulfide.

Dr. Janette Sherman, an internist in Alexandria, Va., who spent years working in Hawaii, conducted a health survey of 71 people for a Leilani Estates-based lawsuit filed against PGV. In 1993, she reported many of those interviewed complained of recurring shortness of breath, swollen glands, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. She also stated 83 percent reported neuropsychiatric problems, such as depression, anxiety and sleeplessness, that had previously been linked to hydrogen sulfide exposure, going as far as to call it an "epidemic."

In 2004, the Hawaii Supreme Court dismissed the case, however, citing the plaintiff's failure to produce enough evidence linking PGV to physical ailments.

"I can't believe they haven't shut that place down," said Sherman, after being informed that PGV was still operational during a recent phone interview. "It is definitely a threat."

Other experts still contend PGV is a health risk, as well.

"I've studied two (neighbors of Puna Geothermal)," wrote Dr. Kaye H. Kilburn, a retired professor from the University of Southern California's Keck School of Medicine and current president of Neuro-Test Inc., in an e-mail to West Hawaii Today. "And found severe impairment of brain function in both."

But Don Thomas, the current head of the Center for the Study of Active Volcanoes at UH-Hilo and man who has spent nearly three decades studying geothermal systems in Hawaii -- including extensive work on the original HGP-A project -- questions such assertions.

"I find claims like that somewhat dubious," Thomas said. "I've worked around hydrogen sulfide more than most people on the island, and I've never had any health problems because of it. That being said, it can be a lethal gas in large doses and should be monitored closely."

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an article "Fruits of Resistance" by a UH Manoa poli sci professor on politics in Hawai'i, which includes a section on Puna Geothermal's initial coming to be.http://www2.hawaii.edu/~irohter/FruitsOfResistenceArticle.htm

Star Bulletin story on EPA criticism of PGV and Harry Kim's objections when he was the Director of Civil Defense
http://archives.starbulletin.com/1999/03...tory8.html

Somewhere in all the links (I am tired and done searching for the night) is a critique of the County Civil Defense Plan which notes that there needs to be an evacuation plan for the residents of Lower Puna in the event of an incident that releases a high amount of hydrogen sulfide ... and I don't believe there is one yet.

Another analysis I read talked about how quickly the tradewinds would carry H2S from PGV to Pahoa ... very fast. Leilani would not have time to evacuate and it would be a real difficulty for subdivisions that had the advantage of more distance, what with having only one road -- assuming that the warning even went out.

The current operation seems to have a good track record, but to say that there is no reason for concern and that it's just uneducated fear of technology is to ignore the many problems that PGV encountered, including its own admission that there were certain things it could not control and that it was not in control of the 91 blowout event.

[rbakker]

Thanks KathyH, I will read them. It's good to have this on record.

[Malapuaao]

Is there any relationship between the drilling and earthquakes? We are just mauka of PGV and as it turned out, we built our house directly over a tectonic crack known to be in excess of several hundred feet deep so I'm mildly concerned about tinkering with Pele and that's not religion!

aloha

[dakine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Malapuaao

we built our house directly over a tectonic crack known to be in excess of several hundred feet deep so I'm mildly concerned...

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and to think.. the county/state allowed for the land to be subdivided.. and the building dept issued building permits.. all on a rift zone.. an area known and expected to have volcanic eruptions, in the past and IN THE FUTURE! a bit silly don't you think? and why would anyone build there? pretty place, cheap land, and maybe a bit of it can't happen to me if I stick my head in da sand?

I have a lot of respect for geothermal, but am not to keen on the notion of becoming, being, dependent upon something that is going to be overrun by lava.

[Kapohocat]

Does any one have the data for safety for the current owners (PGV)?

[Jon]

LOL... Probably not, but they let me vote, so I guess Texans get a pass, as they should. []

quote:

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Originally posted by Damon


Jon - Quit blowing bubble gum!

I don't believe you have lived here long enough to meet the "Federal Requirement" for residency yet. []

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My Blog

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Jon]

Read some, still reading others, seems the History of Hawaii is in flux... in the process of being rewritten.

But that does not matter, its a State in the USA with a Constitution, and I am a citizen under that constitution and I will not be treated like a "second" classed citizen in my own state or country.

you focus on the kingdom being tossed out... but becoming a state had nothing to do with that. Had Hawaii stayed a territory bringing the kingdom back would not have been such a problem. Of course had Hawaii not become a state and had separated for the USA some of you would be speaking Chinese now. Or had Hawaii separated before WWII, Japan would have wiped out most if not all Native Hawaiians and setup shop and the WWII might have been very different.

Also this is the only attitude I have and I am used to being disliked.

quote:

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Originally posted by KathyH

Jon - I don't know how to reply to your POV except that attitude gets us all disliked.
You should read some more history of how Hawai'i became part of the U.S.. It was a wrongful overthrow; there has been a presidential apology. It just can't be undone.

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"