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Hello Mr. Wolf, won't you please sit down?
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Originally posted by Rob Tucker

Unless you can impose a way for people to stop making babies then you will have to face the fact there there will be growth. It is not a case of growth is good or growth is bad, there will be growth.



I learned in college that when a country becomes developed, it goes through what is called a demographic transition where birthrate goes down below the point of replacement. This has happened in Europe and Japan. The birthrate is so low there now that they are worried about population decline. If you exclude immigration, I think the same thing is happening in the US. If you look at the situation of Puna and Hawaii in general, the increase in population is mainly from people moving here, not births.
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I totally agree, as an immigrant (Canada at 12yrs old). As most of us are, but when our family came out, we had to sign off for no public assistance and it took years even with a medical reason. My stepmother came with the Presaro program from Mexico and her family all legaly assimilated to citizens. We all had to have a sustainable job to get in.

Today we're letting in anyone and giving them more rights and benefits than citizens. Like all people, give it all to them and they see us as suckers and forget why they're here. And not having to learn english is really a mistake as the translation can come from the radical element among them.
Gordon J Tilley
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Does anyone know whether or not the primary growth in population on the big island is due to birth rate or immigration? My assumption, perhaps erroneous, is it is primarily the later. While the birth rate is difficult in our current society to address responsibly, it seems that marketing primarily to immigration is a wholly different manner--and is profiteering at the expense of the local good, and something that could at least be discouraged.
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Does anyone know whether or not the primary growth in population on the big island is due to birth rate or immigration?

Along those same lines, does anyone know of estimates for the Big Island's carrying capacity given any of the following conditions:
-fossil fuel availability and business continuing on as usual for the next 50 years (unlikely as that may seem),
-fossil fuels being replaced with other energy sources and business going on as per usual during and after the power-source swapping period, or
-fossil fuel supply interruption or discontinuance, no effective power source replacement emerging in time for implimentation, and agricultural productivity being dependent upon draft animals and human musclepower?

Seems like with clever strategies from aquaponics and raised bed biochar tierra preta soils to taro and rice where it will grow that the Big Island could support quite a human population, indefinitely, but even so there must be a limit on any finite system (especially if people are stupid enough to cut down trees past the tipping point of that system).

By the way, just to mention, I recently read a novel by Jeanette Winterson titled "The Stone Gods" which may appeal to anyone interested in either this discussion thread or the related "Words of the Lagoon: sustainability and culture" thread. Very well-written and entertaining book.
http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Gods-Jeanett...0151014914



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A pleasant slideshow: http://www.thejoymovie.com

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Astonishing skill! This archer is a real-life Legolas and then some!
http://geekologie.com/2013/11/real-life-...rs-anc.php

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Those answers cannot be found without asking "at what average level of personal consumption." This is the issue that most seem to avoid.
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I keep thinking about the largest historical inhibitors of development on Hawaii Island; Kilauea, Mauna Loa, and Hualalai. People get comfortable and complacent when Pele remains obediently within the boundries of a national park.

When Homes and businesses are threatened and destroyed; the mass exodus begins. It happened in the 1990's when the relatively undeveloped Kalapana area was overrun. You couldn't give away property in lower Puna. What's going to happen when Pahoa, Hilo, Ka'u, South Kona , or South Kohala are affected?

Personnally, I can live with it. I've lived on the san Andreas fault, in "tornado alley", and on the Gulf coast. I prefer the creeping Lava. Build modestly, modular and sustainably. Be ready to move your home like people have done for centuries.
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That's a good attitude.
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Historically, trepidation regarding Pele has indeed kept many people away from the Big Island and so kept land prices relatively low ...but I think water shortage difficulties in many places elsewhere will soon overcome Pele-anxiety among many. To wit:

Water scarcity 'now bigger threat than financial crisis'...by 2030, more than half the world's population will live in high-risk areas.
Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor, The Independent
15MAR2009
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment...45358.html

Humanity is facing "water bankruptcy" as a result of a crisis even greater than the financial meltdown now destabilising the global economy, two authoritative new reports show. They add that it is already beginning to take effect, and there will be no way of bailing the earth out of water scarcity.

The two reports – one by the world's foremost international economic forum and the other by 24 United Nations agencies – presage the opening tomorrow of the most important conference on the looming crisis for three years. The World Water Forum, which will be attended by 20,000 people in Istanbul, will hear stark warnings of how half the world's population will be affected by water shortages in just 20 years' time, with millions dying and increasing conflicts over dwindling resources.

A report by the World Economic Forum, which runs the annual Davos meetings of the international business and financial elite, says that lack of water, will "soon tear into various parts of the global economic system" and "start to emerge as a headline geopolitical issue".

It adds: "The financial crisis gives us a stark warning of what can happen if known economic risks are left to fester. We are living in a water 'bubble' as unsustainable and fragile as that which precipitated the collapse in world financial markets. We are now on the verge of bankruptcy in many places with no way of paying the debt back."

The Earth – a blue-green oasis in the limitless black desert of space – has a finite stock of water. There is precisely the same amount of it on the planet as there was in the age of the dinosaurs, and the world's population of more than 6.7 billion people has to share the same quantity as the 300 million global inhabitants of Roman times.

Water use has been growing far faster than the number of people. During the 20th century the world population increased fourfold, but the amount of freshwater that it used increased nine times over. Already 2.8 billion people live in areas of high water stress, the report calculates, and this will rise to 3.9 billion – more than half the expected population of the world – by 2030. By that time, water scarcity could cut world harvests by 30 per cent – equivalent to all the grain grown in the US and India – even as human numbers and appetites increase.

Some 60 per cent of China's 669 cities are already short of water. The huge Yellow River is now left with only 10 per cent of its natural flow, sometimes failing to reach the sea altogether. And the glaciers of the Himalayas, which act as gigantic water banks supplying two billion people in Asia, are melting ever faster as global warming accelerates. Meanwhile devastating droughts are crippling Australia and Texas.

The World Water Development Report, compiled by 24 UN agencies under the auspices of Unesco, adds that shortages are already beginning to constrain economic growth in areas as diverse and California, China, Australia, India and Indonesia. The report, which will be published tomorrow, also expects water conflicts to break out in the Middle East, Haiti, Sri Lanka, Colombia and other countries.

"Conflicts about water can occur at all scales," it warns. "Hydrological shocks" brought about by climate change are likely to "increase the risk of major national and international security threats".


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A pleasant slideshow: http://www.thejoymovie.com

)'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'(

)'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'( )'(

Astonishing skill! This archer is a real-life Legolas and then some!
http://geekologie.com/2013/11/real-life-...rs-anc.php

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It is a real issue. And this is the case in spite of the fact that China probably leads the world on almost every front in real sustainability. They do so because sustainability is no longer a ideological issue for China, it is a practical issue of survivability. With the trends entrenched here in a decade Hawaii will find itself in the same place.

The major obstacle to sustainable living in Hawaii isn't climate, or lack of technology, or lack of will. It is cost. Sustainable living is always non-consumptive living, and non-consumptive living is always minimal in terms of its financial footprint. Cost makes sustainability impossible. If you live sustainably, you'll never have a lot of money. If you have a lot of money, it's because you're doing something unsustainable. There simply isn't any profit motive in an ecologically benign life. That's very much the point of the whole thing, after all. While a 3 acre farm here may well be able to provide a real sustainable living for a family in the most ecologically and socially benign manner--once one adds the additional costs of perhaps 100000 dollars to bring the "homestead" into "compliance" with the issues the PDCP seems to be very concerned with, regardless of scale, you make sustainability utterly impossible. One can build a composting toilet for 500 dollars. If you permit the thing, and you have the appropriate listings, etc., your figure will be closer to 5000 dollars. You can put solar panels and solar water on your roof for 1000 dollars. If you have a permitted system, with all the fees and the rest involved as well as hiring the people(required) to do if for you, you'll have 10000 dollars in it for sure. It is a shame that the most forward thinking "policy" on the island is still so behind the times that the most beneficial and useful technology on the island is priced out of the reach of viability by law.

But, of course, progress throughout human history has always required a bit of a "pirate" attitude.
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quote:
But, of course, progress throughout human history has always required a bit of a "pirate" attitude.

That is an interesting statement, and I agree.

I was thinking the other day that if when the U.S. was founded, we had all the regulations and tax laws that have today. we would have never have been the wonderful wealthy country that people all across the globe aspire to come to.
In fact we would just be a 3rd world backwater.

You know back when the U.S. was founded, every soul on the planet was the subject of a king, sultan, maharishi, emperor or chieftain.

In the vain of sustainability, was the Kapu system a workable solution? Does it take a despotic ruler to limit resources in order for this sustainability thing to work?

We are not going to run out of potatoes because we eat french fries, and we will never run out of trees because we use lumber.

We will always adapt and improvise.

We always have, at least those of us that are the offspring of those that did.
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