HB 444 Civil Unions

[PaulW]

What's the basis of the opposition here in Hawaii, is it the religious lobby?

[Jon]

first off, Marriage is not a "right"... and to try to change it into one will not work.



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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
HBAT

[Bob Orts]

Civil Union is a right.
Marriage (if defined only as a non-religious practice of the state) is a right.
Marriage (if in the sense of a religious practice) is a privilege of the religious organization.

The basis is that a privilege can be taken away by the state, but a right can not be taken away unless the states constitution says so. So with all legal challenges, it has come down to a ban on same sex marriages and civil unions are always illegal unless the constitution says it's illegal. That's why CA and others (including the US) have to push for constitutional restrictions on same sex marriage because without it, they can't ban same sex marriages/civil unions. It really doesn’t matter what any states does as this will end up before the US Supreme Court on the basis that sex is a protected class under federal law so how can marriage be restrict based on sex? Now, if all marriages were civil unions and a religious marriage is a type of ceremony of marriage, the religious marriage can be restricted because it's a privilege of the religion, not the State.

[Jon]

you need to look up what are rights and what are not...

you don't have the "right" to drive a car do you? so how can you have the right to have the state say you are married to someone?


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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
HBAT

[jdirgo]

So, if I pass the test and get a driver's license, I can drive. Should it be any different to get a marriage license?

Based purely on the gender of the people involved, Brittany Spears' 12-hour marriage is more valid than one I could have? I can quote any number of opponents of same-sex marriage with far less stable relationship histories than I have had (Rush, Newt -- I'm talking to you and you're just the start).

Unrelated topic, but I think there should be a marriage test that you have to pass. It might help prevent this serial-divorce problem.

John Dirgo, R, BIC, EcoBroker, ABR, e-PRO
Aloha Coast Realty, LLC
808-987-9243 cell
http://www.alohacoastrealty.com

[Jon]

Nope... Marriage should not be recognized or endorsed by the state in any way. All issues with insurance, family or other related items needs to move to the private sector.
This will never happen because a large part of our government is employed to deal with these issues.





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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
HBAT

[Bob Orts]

Jon, Hawaii has clouded the issue over rights and privilege because in 1997 they didn't leave issues of marriage in legislation; they moved a provision of marriage to the Bill of Rights which pertains to the rights of citizens. In doing so, right or wrong, they changed Hawaii’s recognition of marriage to something that requires a Constitutional mention under individual rights versus a legislative action which pertains to privileges. Had they not done that, marriage in Hawaii would squarely be a privilege subject to legislative action, and a question of a “rights” (not to be confused with the constitutionality of applying any restrictions) would never be an issue.

Now, let’s say this never happened and marriage is solely a states rights regulated matter. That still does not give blanket immunity to the state to impose illegal restrictions. So they could never say only males can get a drivers licensee. They can never say that only females can be electrical contractors. They can never say that only people between 30 - 40 can be licensed as dentist. They can never say that blacks and whites can never get married in Hawaii. They can never say that a person of Asian decent can't marry a person of European descent. They can never say a Catholic can't marry an Episcopalian. They can never say that a female can not buy a house with another female. All these will be illegal because they are protected by the US Constitution against discrimination. So by denying marriage to two females, the reason is based on their sex which makes it unconstitutional. The DOM further turned it into a circus because it allowed states to impose such a restriction, which means that without it, denying same sex marriages would have been unconstitutional under federal law. We'll have to wait until the cases wind themselves through the court system and the DOM is challenged on pure constitutional issues.

Even if a person does not agree with same sex marriages or civil unions, the danger of letting it stand would be the same as allowing Hawaii to ban home ownership because a person is white.

[Jon]

Sorry, states don't get to issues or remove "rights". The can recognized things legally but thats about all.

so you are saying that by rights alone, a man can have a hysterectomy? don't think that will work.
You keep coming back to Marriage... that is a legal term defined with a man and woman... you need to drop it altogether and use civil unions otherwise it will never work.

I think the state also defines only Men as fathers and Women as mothers... so I guess we better change those also. I wonder what would happen if some guy starts putting that he is female on all his state paperwork.. and started asking for all the extras that go with it.

Discrimination is all forms is bad. you are trying to deal with just one, and pointing at others will not help... it just makes it worse.





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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
HBAT

[Blakeyboy1]

A colleague once told me "People get hung up on this marriage thing but when I explain the situation to them and use the words civil union they totally get it and actually change thier minds on the subject. So the issue is the word marriage... go tell your people." LOL

There is much truth to this.

-Blake
http://www.theboysgreatescape.blogspot.com/

[Jon]

Duh...


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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
HBAT