Wasting the taxpayers money

[Obie]

"Pete - there is geothermal without fracking, (includes most geothermal worldwide and all the geothermal in Hawaii thus far), and then there's geothermal with fracking (aka enhanced geothermal systems or EGS). A fracking ban would merely constrain geothermal to the traditional, frack-free kind. Why do you want the unnecessary hazards of fracking in Hawaii?"

Russell,

Why do you insist on passing a bill that has no relevance here? This is a total waste of time and money.
I spend half of the year in Ohio in a county that has over 300 gas wells that have been drilled and fracked in the last few years..Two of the wells are within 1/2 mile of my house and there has been no downside.My well is fine my lake has water in it and I see no hazards.

A few unfortunate mistakes were made in other states early on but those problems have been corrected.There are over 35,000 producing gas and oil wells in Ohio and only one has caused a problem.It was an injection well used to get rid of fracking fluid and caused some minor earthquakes.It was shut down and the problem stopped.

If you want to take on a problem why not come up with a way to take care of our injection wells in Hawaii?

"During the past two decades in Hawaii, more than 500 injection
wells for the disposal of domestic sewage wastewater have been constructed and operated. Thus far, contamination of potable groundwater supplies has not been a problem. Many of the injection wells, however, have not performed as designed "

[Hawnjigs]

Have you seen the docu "Gasland"?

Aloha aina, aloha kai

[Obie]

I have,It is a bunch of bull**** !!!

Here is a review of gasland 2.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/201...-progress/

An excerpt.

Imagine some of America’s best minds created a technological breakthrough that could pull us out of recession, lower every American’s cost of living, revitalize dead industries, and lead to employment opportunities for millions. How would we react?

Unfortunately, history tells us that technological breakthroughs often face hysterical opposition. Technophobes opposed the automobile. They opposed the radio. They opposed the computer.
If You Remember 'Peak Oil' And 'Peak Wireless Spectrum,' You're Laughing.
And now they’re opposing today’s most exciting technological breakthrough, shale energy technology—aka “fracking.”

Their spokesman is Josh Fox. And July 8th, to worldwide fanfare, HBO broadcast his latest manifesto, Gasland, Part II.

Gasland, Part II is a direct continuation of the original Gasland, which famously featured footage of a Pennsylvania man lighting his water on fire—a phenomenon that, unknown to many, is a frequent natural occurrence.

Both movies follow a similar three-part formula. First, Fox tells a sad story about a family undergoing a problem, usually with their drinking water—“When we turn on the tap, the water reeks of hydrocarbons and chemicals,” says John Fenton of Pavillion, Wyoming. Then, Fox blames it on the oil and gas industry using “fracking”–without exploring any alternative explanations, such as the fact that methane and other substances often naturally seep into groundwater. Finally, Fox concludes that fracking, and really all oil and gas drilling, should be illegal–as if any technology that can be misused should be outlawed.

This is a blueprint for opposing any technology. For example, Fox could make Carland, which could show car crashes and then blame all of them on “Big Auto.” Then it could argue that because car crashes are possible, we don’t need cars."

[Obie]

Here is a really good article on what happened in Ohio:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index...._smal.html

This is the headline,

"Waste-water injection well caused 12 earthquakes in Ohio, investigation shows"

And our good Senator is going to try to ban fracking when one of the most cited accidents doesn't involve fracking.We have over 500 waste water injection wells in Hawaii and ours are injecting human waste !!

[Hawnjigs]

Adjoining state PA:
"The AP found that Pennsylvania received 398 complaints in 2013 alleging that oil or natural gas drilling polluted or otherwise affected private water wells"

My best fishing bud John McK lives in Pittsburgh, and says the Marcellus frack profits are so astronomical, the entire state administration from Governor Corbett on down is, well, you know.

Opposition to fracking has NOTHING to do with blind resistance to technology and energy extraction progress. The issue is WATER resource preservation.
"The drilling and hydraulic fracturing of a horizontal shale gas well may typically require 2 to 4 million gallons of water"
My bud John has noticed a suspicious amount of his fishing lakes being closed for "repairs" and drained.

Contamination issues:
"The most common chemical used for hydraulic fracturing in the United States in 2005–2009 was methanol, while some other most widely used chemicals were isopropyl alcohol, 2-butoxyethanol, and ethylene glycol"
Pavilion, WY EPA testing local water supply wells:
"The wells also contained benzene at 50 times the level that is considered safe for people, as well as phenols -- another dangerous human carcinogen -- acetone, toluene, naphthalene and traces of diesel fuel"

Aloha aina, aloha kai

[peteadams]

[Moved from the Faye Hanohano thread to avoid additional dilution that topic]

"Pete - there is geothermal without fracking, ..."

Russell, not the point at all. We've already seen that there is a vocal contingent in Puna that has with religious fervor opposed geothermal development with all manner of unsupported stories of personal harm, much like the religious fervor against GMO. It seems perfectly possible to predict that some of them, perhaps aided by mainland money like the anti-GMO forces, will take the loose language of your bill and use it to cripple geothermal development by burdening it with significant litigation. It is also possible, based on the loose language, that they might succeed.

Don't know how a sophisticated legal bulldog might frame the arguments, but they might go like this:

"increasing the porosity or permeability of the geologic formation"

Typical geothermal development involves drilling which inherently involves fracturing rock.

"for the purpose of instigating or increasing the porosity or permeability of the geologic formation"

Geothermal inherently requires an increase in porosity or permeability in rock formations to allow brine fluids to circulate and absorb heat in sufficient volume.

"to initiate or increase the production of a desired commodity from a well"

Geothermal inherently involves injecting brine, a desired commodity for heat absorption, into the fractured rock of a well.

No I don't like your bill. There are too many ways it can be manipulated to impede or stop geothermal development and there seems to be more than enough fervor among some people to do just that. If anyone is wondering why geothermal development is important, see the several previous threads on Punaweb or, even better, read Richard Ha's many postings on the topic: http://hahaha.hamakuasprings.com

[Hawnjigs]

I think most of us are neither complete technophobes or technophiles. Supporters of new tech will claim prosperity benefits, and detractors will delineate risks. Both sides may be prone to exaggeration, and attempt to denigrate the "other" side. So, each of US decide based on comparative examination of data and commentary, using reason or inner guidance.

Personally, I support geothermal development and think PGV has done a reasonable job to address public concerns including remediation for collaterally damaged nearby residents. Please educate me if I am remiss.

As for the local anti-fracking bill - I thank Senator Ruderman for researching and addressing the POSSIBILITY of EGS which I wasn't aware of. "Waste of time" could more properly be addressed to the United States House of Representatives for passing 47 resolutions to repeal or defund the ACA(ObamaCare) last year.

Aloha aina, aloha kai

[Russell]

It's so simple, Pete. There is indeed relevance to Hawaii for fracking, as you acknowledge in your comments. Obie says "A few unfortunate mistakes were made in other states early on but those problems have been corrected," showing a complete lack of understanding of the ongoing fracking concerns nationwide. Why would anyone want the unnecessary risks of fracking in Hawaii? The only members of the public who opposed my bill were representatives of a geothermal developer, who insist they don't need to frack yet implausibly oppose the ban. My bill does not stop geothermal as you insinuate; it constrains it to the safer forms without fracking.
Re-injection wells clearly do not meet the definition. And to the point of the topic, exactly zero taxpayer money has been wasted, so that's a red-herring.
The bill is intended to protect our precious groundwater. Why do you promote fracking, Pete and Obie? Please answer this simple question.

Russell

[kalakoa]

quote:

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The bill is intended to protect our precious groundwater.

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Laudable, yet pointless, as cesspools and ag runoff aren't controlled.

[peteadams]

"Pete says "A few unfortunate mistakes were made in other states early on but those problems have been corrected,"

Sorry, didn't make that statement and I wouldn't say that anyway. The problems with mainland oil/natural gas fracking are not "mistakes" but part of the current well known industrial processes of fracking, particularly as regards your next statement:

"Re-injection wells clearly do not meet the definition."

Then you've entirely missed what appears to be the cause of the earthquake and water contamination problems with mainland fracking, which seems to be not the original very deep rock fracturing to obtain the oil and gas, but the re-injection of the waste fracking liquids at much shallower depths to dispose of them. That is apparently what lubricates the rock strata causing earthquakes and is at a depth that coincides with ground water reservoirs.

Given what I have been (actually) saying, it's hardly a surprise that you found opposition from geothermal developers. Your bill does not "[constrain geothermal] to the safer forms without fracking." What your bill does is make it much easier for geothermal development to be delayed or halted through the courts by the already well-evident and not particularly rational anti-geothermal forces on the Big Island.

And, in any event, since PGV is operating at depths which reach liquid lava I don't think there is any issue of contaminating ground water. You would do better to start an investigation of the hydrodynamics of cesspools, septic tanks and reinjection wells if ground water quality is your concern.