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Is Mauna Loa relevant to the TMT debate?
#1
The TMT debate. Does Mauna Loa have any relevance? Two lines of thought dominate the opposition to TMT: native Hawaiians’ spiritual reverence for Mauna Kea and the environmental impact of the project.

The Sierra Club’s website states the TMT Plan ”will add to the significant, adverse and substantial impacts to the cultural and natural resources” of the mountain and “permanently alter an undeveloped portion of the northern plateau.”

The proposal “would unleash a whole new era of summit development, allowing even larger telescopes of 50 or 100 meters in size,” the website continues.


Often implicit in these arguments, as in the other similar arguments worldwide about projects in natural areas, is the notion that a unique natural resource is threatened.

Mauna Kea is pretty unique. But it is not one of a kind. Barely 25 miles south lies another giant mountain, equally impressive in many people’s opinions. Though a bit lower (by about 120 feet) and less striking in terms of (steep) relief, Mauna Loa is larger and dominates half of our island.

Hawaiian religious views, to my knowledge, do not much enter in the discussion of Mauna Loa. (I welcome correction.) But perhaps there are environmental and aesthetic factors.

The Wekiu Bug does not live on Mauna Loa. But a similar species, Nysius aa, lives there and apparently is doing quite well. Does the population of another mountaintop bug in Hawaii lessen concerns about the general threat to Hawaii’s high-altitude insects?

Does the existence of another virtually untouched 13,000-foot-plus mountain on our island reduce the perception that large areas of Hawaii’s high-altitude terrain are being degraded? Is the annoyance of looking up and seeing telescopes marring the beauty of Mauna Kea mitigated by a glance toward Mauna Loa--and seeing its natural profile untouched?

* * * *

What about moving (gradually) Mauna Kea’s telescope complex to Mauna Loa? What about abutting NOAA’s Mauna Loa Observatory? Situated at 11,141 ft. on the mountain’s north slope, MLO has been operating since 1956.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_Loa_Observatory


Presumably the approximate 2,600 ft. difference between the MLO site and Mauna Kea’s 13,802 ft. summit produces a major difference in observation quality. Could geologists identify a safe construction site closer to Mauna Loa’s 13,679 ft. summit?

The idea should be explored, given the importance of looking 30, 50, 100 years out. The Sierra Club’s reference to “a whole new era of development” is not only true, but would be inevitable--pending approvals.

Some TMT proponents might wish to avoid discussing the prospect that TMT will be “just the first of several,” but IMO, honesty is the best policy. How could it be otherwise? Existing observatories will grow obsolete. In 30-50 years major advances in telescope technology will likely emerge. Exploration of space could gain new importance.

If TMT is blocked, will not the same happen to subsequent proposals? Doesn’t a rejection of TMT effectively end the long-term future of astronomy on Mauna Kea, or at least relegate Hawaii island--arguably one of the world’s premier astronomical sites--to a steady decline toward antiquated technology? Such technology is handicapped to produce new science.

How much risk is there in pushing toward the higher elevations of Mauna Loa? What do geologists say? What do astronomers think about Mauna Loa’s potential?

Mauna Loa lava flows to the south Kohala-Kona coast occurred not long ago. One flow reached near the ocean near Kawaihae around 1859. Another reached the ocean near Hookena (south of Kona) in 1950. Yet along the entire west coast of our island lie billions of dollars of real estate.

Construction risks have long been taken with Mauna Loa or in the mountain’s path.
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#2
It is a senseless to even consider.
Mauna Kea is extint.
Mauna Loa could erupt any day, and is considered overdue.


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#3
Mauna Loa? What do geologists say?

Mauna Loa gonna blow-a.

It... lends weight to Goethe's felicitous description of architecture as 'frozen music.' ... Does this, I often wonder, make music 'defrosted architecture?' Listening to Bach's Goldberg variations as I often do on walks when motorway noise and other auditory intrusions preclude the music of silence, it strikes me that it might. - Pub Walks in Underhill Country, Nat Segnit
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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#4
Could you elaborate, Leilanidude? Start with the MLO site. Offer your assessment of that site's susceptibility to destruction.

Comment on why you think the MLO folks elected to take the risk of building on Mauna Loa around 1956--just a few years after the giant 1950 eruption to the south.

Tell us your knowledge about which parts are Mauna Loa are most prone to geological activity.

It guess it is OK to keep throwing in short criticisms to commentaries on Punaweb year after year, but it seems that at some point you ought to try to back up your statements. Think of it as moving to a higher level.
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#5
Here's my "short criticism": Mauna Loa is not relevant simply because the "sacred lands" will be found to exist under any proposed project of sufficient size and/or cost.
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#6
Offer your assessment of that site's susceptibility to destruction

High

Comment on why you think the MLO folks elected to take the risk of building on Mauna Loa around 1956--just a few years after the giant 1950 eruption to the south.

It's an inexpensive facility. The cost of air monitoring equipment is far, far, far less than the cost of a telescope.

Tell us your knowledge about which parts are Mauna Loa are most prone to geological activity.

All of them.

There's not really a lot to discuss concerning the construction of telescopes on Mauna Loa. Mauna Loa can blow at any time, in any direction. It can erupt with as much lava in one day as Kilauea discharges in a year. Its lava can reach the Kona Coast in one day. If it erupts on the eastern flank it could reach Hilo in less than a week. The Mauna Loa Observatory is a relatively inexpensive structure. It even has a token lava diversion barrier in place which indicates how likely they consider the potential for a nearby eruption. You can see it on Google Maps. As Mauna Loa is relatively active, the mountain experiences more frequent settling due to the localized movement of magma causing fequent earthquakes, which would wreak havoc on sensitive astronomical equipment like lenses and mirrors. Not so much on air quality measurement devices.

It... lends weight to Goethe's felicitous description of architecture as 'frozen music.' ... Does this, I often wonder, make music 'defrosted architecture?' Listening to Bach's Goldberg variations as I often do on walks when motorway noise and other auditory intrusions preclude the music of silence, it strikes me that it might. - Pub Walks in Underhill Country, Nat Segnit
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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#7
That is a good explanation, HOTPE. A person without a detailed science background such as myself reading about the MLO facility might logically raise the issue--which is what I did. (The info about astronomical equipment being sensitive to any ground movement is highly interesting.)

Now we still have Part 1 of my commentary. We will see if anyone finds any merit there.

(Kalakoa I appreciate your short comment. It is a short comment admidst other longer comments of yours over time that offer detail and insight. Pardon me for being critical of patterns of commenting that are little more than quips of criticism.)
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#8
quote:
Originally posted by MarkD

Could you elaborate, Leilanidude? Start with the MLO site. Offer your assessment of that site's susceptibility to destruction.

Comment on why you think the MLO folks elected to take the risk of building on Mauna Loa around 1956--just a few years after the giant 1950 eruption to the south.

Tell us your knowledge about which parts are Mauna Loa are most prone to geological activity.

It guess it is OK to keep throwing in short criticisms to commentaries on Punaweb year after year, but it seems that at some point you ought to try to back up your statements. Think of it as moving to a higher level.

There is no point. I do not care why someone decided to build the small facility way back when. It wasn't a smart decision, despite it still being around today. They got lucky.

No one needs MY knowledge about which parts are prone to geologic activity - the scientists have made the point very clear already.

My short criticisms seem better than your long-winded diatribes which are full of conceit and arrogance.

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#9
At least I try to be cordial. I do not begin my exchanges with people like this: You are not very familiar with this, are you? (And there is worse from you.)

Diatribe "a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something." I try not to attack people, but do offer criticism of valid issues, like Hawaii's shoreline policy.

I also offer views, such as above, that should not offend anyone. I hope they are interesting and relevant enough to generate discussion.

Regarding arrogance, I have acknowledged my lack of science depth in discussions with some of the astronomy experts here. They educated me several times.

But the two of us are having a problem. For my part I will avoid your posts, either on my commentaries or elsewhere. Have a good day.
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#10
Mauna Kea is far from extinct.
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Would you be happier if I had called it dormant since it has been over 5,000 years since the last eruption?
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