Puna Geothermal Fined for Violation

[PunaMauka2]

HiloPuna - "I think a distinction can, and should be made..."(in regards to the claims of Ad Hominem).

very good, HiloPuna! glad to see you bring up the fact that there are distinctions. wouldn't want to see claims of Ad Hominem end up functioning as a Red Herring. i am always enthused to see knowledge of logical fallacies shared, for the simply productive reason that the understanding of them can so effectively help cut through cycles of BS, our own very much included.

granted, it does appear there may be some gray area in determining Ad Hominem. perhaps the abusive form is the easiest to notice and single out. i see fallacies categorized somewhat variously from different sources. links to 4 variations of Ad Hominem for anyone who might be interested. i like how this source includes examples of exceptions for each.

abusive - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index...em-abusive

circumstantial - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index...umstantial

guilt by association - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index...ssociation

"you too" - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index...-tu-quoque


note the needling variation under abusive ...can see that one on various threads here often enough. PunaWeb can be such an ideal classroom to illustrate logical fallacies! haha

[dakine]

Additionally, there are plenty of heavy industrial facilities in residential neighborhoods on the mainland....

Yeah well they incarcerated Geronimo too.. doesn't mean they should be allowed to do so again... and again.. and again..

i.e. we're an evolving society. What is normal now was not and will not be normal in another time. Sheesh it wasn't but a lifetime ago that parents regularly beat their children by way of 'punishing' them or 'teaching' them something! And you know, back then for a kid to stand up and say no wasn't that all acceptable either.

[HiloPuna]

dakine,

Wow, that Geronimo reference was a helluva 'non sequiter'. If you were to travel through Europe, arguably a more evolved society, you'll see industry and commerce intermixed with residential throughout France, Germany, Italy, Spain, just about everywhere I have traveled. I was in Netherlands in October and there was a 300 employee "factory" belching steam in the midst of polder and thatch roofed houses. BTW...thatched roof houses are VERY expensive, the most expensive roof you can have there, more than copper. Those people can well afford legal challenges to planning decisions, yet there the factories are throughout otherwise rural areas. Over there it's called "good planning". The theory is you put the means of production amidst the people, and you distribute the load on society throughout every portion and strata. Go figure !

Now I know some in Puna feel picked on, and this very vocal minority is asking why can't this power generation be stopped because of how they feel. The answer, in terms of this thread, is that's where the most active resource for power generation is, the state applied conditions to protect the people and the natural resources. If you feel hard done by then there is a process; you gather evidence, present it, argue your case, and rely on the rule of law. Thats the basis for this thread "PGV Fined for Violation". The key is to gather evidence that can be tested, is not tainted by bias in its collection and can be objectively reviewed. Can the anti-alliance do that....after all these years of protest? Seems not.

I won't touch the child beating thing....

[ironyak]

Originally posted by leilanidude
Think of it this way. Would you like a Hilo, Kona, Oahu, or mainland resident telling you what is acceptable near your neighborhood?

There are plenty of people, especially in Hilo and Oahu, who are very interested in telling you what is acceptable near your neighborhood.

http://punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20490

[geochem]

quote:

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Originally posted by ironyak


Summit Observations: "The emission rate of sulfur dioxide ranged from around 4,500 to 7,600 tonnes/day during the week ending January 13." Clearly a much higher number than 200 tons per day you cite - and I understood that it was about a 50/50 split between the summit and ERZ sources.

And this understanding of a "50/50 split between summit and ERZ sources" comes from where?

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It appears that you are correct on the distribution of the gases between the summit and east rift - I had based the 50/50 split on the reported distributions of gases from the summit and Pu'u O'o for the several years after the summit vent opened up - but I neglected to modify that ratio for the later discovery that HVO's numbers for the summit emissions were underestimated by a factor of 20 or more - instead of 1000 to 1200 t/day, the summit emissions were actually ~40,000 tonnes per day. I went back and reviewed the reports on the ERZ emissions and see that they have been estimated variously from 500 t/day to the current 200 t/day so I was incorrect in assuming that the reported number was a typo.

quote:

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[i]I looked at that Volcano Watch you noted and the claims there don’t match the known chemistry of H2S and SO2 - which can quite happily coexist for days at a time together... The other volcano watch article you noted is equally off base with the chemistry of the eruptive and geothermal emissions (natural and man-made).

These appear to be a bold statements that HVO / USGS don't know their business. Do you really think they all missed first semester Organic Chemistry and the Claus reaction? Perhaps consider that the the sulphur chemistry of volcanic gases is complex, much more so than a controlled industrial reaction.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...017246/pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...027730/pdf

You are right in that temperature and pressure play a role in the ratio of SO2 / H2S but why you disregard the role of hydrothermal fluids, as found in ERZ geothermal areas and mentioned in these same articles, is unclear.

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I base my claims on the work done by Werner Giggenbach - who did more groundbreaking chemistry on volcanic gases than pretty much all of USGS combined. It is not a simple process of dissolving magmatic gases into groundwater/geothermal fluids. The chemistry of the geothermal fluids are controlled by chemical equilibria among the minerals present and circulating groundwater at specific temperatures. If you want to understand what is actually going on, I would recommend: Chemical Composition of Volcanic Gases, in the publication: Monitoring and mitigation of volcano hazards, 1996, Edited by Scarpa and Tilling. Afraid I couldn't find an online link to it - but it pretty well describes the chemical controls on volcanic gas compositions.

quote:

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http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/
Examples of volcanic gas compositions, in volume percent concentrations (from Symonds et. al., 1994)

Kilauea Summit
H2O: 37.1%
CO2: 48.9%
SO2: 11.8%
H2: 0.49%
CO: 1.51%
H2S: 0.04%
HCl 0.08

No sure where you got your 5% H2S value mentioned earlier. Unless you can offer a more credible source for your information, I will continue to defer to the expertise of HVO / USGS on these matters.

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I took my numbers from specific analyses published here:
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/pp1463
If you go to page 147 of that report you will find a number of analyses of Pu'u O'o gases - if you compute the average value of the ratios of SO2 to H2S concentrations for the eruptive gases listed you will find that it is 0.0518 or an average of 5.18%.
If you can find a copy of: Gas analysis from Pu'u O'o eruption in 1985, Kilauea Hawaii, by Paul Greenland, published in Bulletin of Volcanology in 1986, you will find more analytical results for Pu'u O'o gases that give values ranging from a high of 10% of H2S to SO2 to a low of about 3%. Greenland's analysis of Mauna Loa eruptive gases from the 1984 eruption fall in the same range - so my estimate of SO2 to H2S seems to be within the ballpark for Hawaii eruptive gases. (Greenland, by the way, was a USGS geochemist.)

quote:

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Once more: SO2 (and its summit or ERZ totals) is not the same chemical as H2S that PGV was fined for.
H2S emissions at Kilauea summit vents are quickly decomposed as opposed to natural geothermal areas found in the East Rift Zone where H2S is the dominate sulfur gas.

Can we move on?

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I know that it would be convenient for you to discount naturally occurring sources of H2S from Kilauea - as well as the high quality studies that show no adverse health effects from low level of exposure to hydrogen sulfide - but I'm afraid that, on both counts, no sale.

[VancouverIslander]

Nice research, geochem.

Just call me Mike

[ironyak]

Evening geochem, thanks for the links and explanations. Let's see if we can do this without everyone else wanting to poke out their own eyes...

I neglected to modify that ratio for the later discovery that HVO's numbers for the summit emissions were underestimated by a factor of 20 or more - instead of 1000 to 1200 t/day, the summit emissions were actually ~40,000 tonnes per day.

~40,000 tonnes of SO2 per day? Do you have a link for that? Changes seen from new methods were from hundreds to several thousands of tonnes.
http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/view.php?id=207

The chemistry of the geothermal fluids are controlled by chemical equilibria among the minerals present and circulating groundwater at specific temperatures. Chemical Composition of Volcanic Gases by Werner Giggenbach 1996

While I was not able to find an online copy, many other articles link to this source, including both of the articles I posted. If there is something specific you want to discuss, please excerpt it, otherwise perhaps we can agree to this general summary that cites Giggenbach - 1996 repeatedly?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...017246/pdf
"The sulphur chemistry of volcanic gases is complex, not least because of the variety of speciation and oxidation state (from 2 to +6): (e.g., SO2,H2S, SO3, OCS, CS2,S,H2SO4)

Equilibration between SO2 and H2S acts as an important gas buffer [Giggenbach, 1996] according to:
SO2 + 3H2 <-> H2S + 2H2O

with H2S favoured at higher pressures and lower temperatures [Symonds et al., 1994]. Especially when concentrations of a conservative species such as CO2 are available, H2S and SO2 measurements help to probe mixing of magmatic and hydrothermal fluids, and related physical and chemical processes [Giggenbach, 1996]."

For the layman, S02 and H2S is converted back and forth with certain pressure, temperature, moisture, and chemical conditions favoring one compound over another. This is why the summit vents and ERZ vents differ in the ratio of their SO2 and H2S emissions.

For H2S percentages in gas emissions:
I took my numbers from specific analyses published here: http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/pp1463 pg 147

First off, this data is taken from early stages (1983 - 1986) of the eruption. Given all the changes seen with the venting behavior on Kilauea over 30 years, including massive increase in totals and better instrumentation, I would be a little wary of generalizing from these numbers.

Secondly, the numbers given are for mole weight %, so your ~5% H2S:SO2 ratio cannot be directly compared to 0.04 H2S % by total volume I posted.

Removing all the math I just did to make these numbers comparable (for the sake of everyone's sanity), perhaps we can simply say:
H2S to SO2 ratios for Kilauea's summit emissions has varied greatly over time ranging from <1% to ~10%.

For those who are interested in the SO2 ranges seen over time up to 2012 check out the graphs or the links to the source USGS reports:
http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/hazards/FAQ_SO2-Vog-Ash/P1.html

I know that it would be convenient for you to discount naturally occurring sources of H2S from Kilauea

Actually, this work is trying to get a good handle on the natural occurring H2S in the PGV area. Given that the summit vents are 10+ miles from PGV and generally downwind, the summit emissions are less likely to be a major source of H2S in the area IMO. Is it your contention that summit emissions account for a significant level of H2S around PGV as compared to the nearer H2S-rich hydrothermal East Rift Zone vents? (Note this appears to be an easy question for askHVO to answer)

It should be clear that there is nothing being done out of convenience for my posts on geothermal topics. There is a lot of work needed to untangle a high level of misinformation, both inadvertent and intentional.

Oh, to sling one liners from the hip. "Igneous" is bliss indeed! Huzzah to the snorkle!

Perhaps we can move onto the health reviews and studies? (Unless our 5 minutes are up Probably more items of general interest there than you and I drawing more equations on the blackboard.

EDIT: equation symbols, typos, section on 40k SO2 tonnes

[ironyak]

Geothermal Health Studies Discussion
http://punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20551

[Guest]

Some of these fines will be challenged by geothermal for even a lighter amount than the original light fines. Does anyone know why these fines are so small or insignificant for some are repeated offenses?
Heard that during the night of the hurricane geothermals monitors failed as well during the power failure, is this true? So let me guess no readings, no facts, no crime, just a planned released below all legal limits. Could this same sequence of events have happened before, we here in leilani were experienceing several power outages in the months prior to that blow out. We also were getting high levels of gases in and around the power plant and lower Puna. Could it be when the power would shut down in the past, geothermal would have to release their extra left over load? We have had only a few small power interruptions the past few months with less geothermal type gas. So maybe every time geothermal needed to dump their load or waste after the power failures, which then the air monitors would also fail to read anything significant until power would be restored. Hopefully the failing monitors was not a common practice or known for some time, pretty sneaky or dirty if so. Would help explain people getting sick, smelling, and seeing the gasses, and yet very low readings if any at all.