so... it begins!

[DaVinci]

Well, this thread was uplifting and positive for almost two whole days! (if we give pahoated a pass, since his first post was kinda' nice...)

I think that's a Punaweb record...

#GoTeamTMT

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

quote:

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Originally posted by pahoated

Apparently, several of those observatories are empty and stripped of equipment.

There have also been incidences where workers have gone out and found ancient burial sites, then desecrated them by taking bones as souvenirs. Some of the remains have even shown up on Ebay.

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How many observatories on Mauna Kea are vacant? Do you know which ones were closed down?

I remember reading about a Hawaiian skull from Maui that was sold on eBay about 10 years ago, but it was returned when eBay found out about the sale as it is against their policy to sell human bones. Do you know what artifacts from the Big Island were listed and sold on eBay? Were they ever returned?

[ericlp]

Just to keep things on topic once more...

Here some GREAT info on the TMT...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWLNq46ZxM&feature=youtu.be




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To email me click on Link http://is.gd/QMfVEX

[TomK]

I don't know if PT was joking or really quoting what someone had said, but there are no observatories on the mountain that are vacant (except the UH training telescope which requires some work to make it operational) and none are currently closed down. As for the $1 per year rent, this is one of the big misleading statements that keeps going round and the sort of tactic many of the opponents tried to use in court (e.g., claiming there was extensive fencing at the summit). Each of the observatories pays their rent in the form of observing time to UH and therefore benefits the university, local researchers and astronomy and physics education in Hawaii. At the JAC we pay the equivalent of about $1 million a year to do this, it's a very significant part of our budget, and for the the Keck observatory it would be about $4 million a year. This is money that comes from outside the state but benefits Hawaii. The arrangement for the TMT is completely different. In addition to the $1 million a year for local education, they will pay a rent starting at a few hundred thousand dollars a year rising incrementally as the observatory is developed.

The notion that the observatories are closely tied into the telecommunication, national defense and other industries is again the usual made-up nonsense from people who have no idea how the astronomy community works or how astronomy benefits this island in particular.

[PaulW]

There are many places in the word that would pay $$$$ to get an investment of 1.4B
The anti-science nuts are the enemies of economic growth, among many other things.
Welcome, TMT!

[TomK]

When I hit "Submit Reply" on my last post, I immediately realised I missed something out. I could have edited the post but thought I'd wait for someone to reply, and Paul, you did it in a great way because it introduces another point very nicely.

Although the observatories do pay rent it's not traditional rent, as in handing over money to some landlord. I hope that was clear in my post. That amount of rent is typically 15% of the operational costs of an observatory. The rest of those operational costs, nearly all of them, go into the local economy. The most significant part of the JAC's budget goes into staff costs. That's wages and all the other costs associated with employing someone (benefits, 401Ks etc). That money goes directly into the local economy via the people employed by the JAC. Their wages go into paying for housing, taxes (including local ones), utilities, food and local businesses. The rest goes into all the other costs an observatory has. Utilities, gas and cryogenic supplies, water delivery and so on. Guess what, those are local businesses that supply those services. The JAC is one of of several observatories on the island and all operate with a similar model. The observatories also pay to maintain the road to the summit. There are several local tour companies that benefit from that, those companies wouldn't exist without the observatories. Visiting astronomers stay in hotels and eat in local restaurants (as do local staff of course!). Despite that, observatory staff give up their free time and expenses to visit schools and set up local outreach events to encourage both adults and children to appreciate what science can do for them.

Nearly all those several tens of millions of dollars coming from outside the state every year go into the local economy, yet we still have a few people who hold out their hand and say "give me more money".