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Comparing parts of the letter with the link Obie posted:
>You get caught in the wind and make beautiful places all over Hawaii look like a dump.
True
>You drift into the ocean and kill wildlife.
Probably sometimes true, but nowhere near as much as claimed
>You're also not very easy to recycle
False (you can recycle at most supermarkets)
>And you need oil to be made, which is running out quick.
False ("They are made of ethane which is a waste product from domestically produced natural gas. If the ethane is not used to make plastic bags, it will have to be burned off.")
>Paper Bag [...] [is] more sustainable than you will ever be
False (" Paper bags result in between 2.0 and 3.3 times more greenhouse gases than plastic bags. The life cycle of paper bags results in far more water and air pollution and other negative environmental impacts than the life cycle of plastic bags. Paper is not an environmentally friendly product by any stretch of the imagination.")
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In most of Euorope the canvas bag is the norm. I lived there when I was much younger and have since used the canvas bag when shopping.
When purchasing local fish /meat they use a wax paper to wrap the fish . Some use newspaper (yuck).
I've been lucky enough to travel extensively and no matter what part of the world I was in, plastic and styrofoam were a trash/debris problem. Its hard to not use plastic bags completely. They do make a
decomposable "plastic" bag (and plates/cups) with a corn starch base.
enjoy.
riverwolf
riverwolf
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Get a fair trade hemp bag and use it for the rest of your life... Get stainless containers to transport meats...
http://www.reusablebags.com/store/heavy-...-p-11.html
http://lifewithoutplastic.com/boutique/s...p-341.html
Be done with a disposable lifestyle...
William DeBoe
Delray Beach, FL
Moe'uhane Oihana mahi ai
Mahi 'ai 'Ulu
....Or a .99 9' X 12' 1mil drop cloth sheet from HD.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tucker
I read that on the mainland in some locations that instead of a ban they are putting a 25 cents per bag price/tax. Wonder how that would affect people's love for cheap throwaway plastic bags..... making them expensive throwaway plastic bags
I think this is a good idea. Need a bag, you buy a bag and as time goes on have a sliding scale 25 cents in 2011, 30 cents in 2012, 35 cents in 2013, and so on. If you bring your own get one 25 cent discount on your overall groceries like a coupon discount. If it goes negative for users, and a little positive for bringers, it will begin to make an impact. There will come a day when someone says "$5.00 for a plastic bag? Let me run out to the car for my recycling bags". Problem will begin to solve itself economically. And yes probably meat, etc may be exempt for now. But cans and bread and veggies etc should not be. The bagger usually separates these items anyway - meats from non-cold or non-meats.
IMHO, the increase of pricing of sugar long long ago did more to ruin the moonshine bootlegging industry than any "revenuers" could. And thats what this needs - reward those who bring their bags with a very small discount, charge those who dont.
In ten years, kids will look at us and laugh about "bag legislation".
I agree with Obie that other plastic trash is a huge huge part of the problem too. Personally i save many of my plastic & glass containers for doggie bags for my friends if we have a party. I made the mistake of sending people home with good tupperware and never saw it again so this was purely a economical choice not any big save the planet choice.
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I think what people are missing is that cheap plastic is mostly leftover crude oil when the desirable parts have been fractioned out for fuel, etc. The raw material is available for virtually free, as long as we're pumping crude oil for fuel.
Should it be made into thin baggies that are easily littered across the planet? I think, no - but it will be made into something, whether it's plastic lawn furniture, playground equipment, or a giant slag heap next to the refinery.
I haven't seen much that I do like made out of plastic, except maybe body panels on cars - much nicer to bounce off of another car instead of leaving creases in each other's bodywork.
I agree with fishnchamp1 re: using grown fiber instead. It's just hard to make grown fiber competitive with industrial waste in terms of raw materials cost. Maybe if the island started a "plastic import tax" like Germany has for styrofoam, it could give local farmers an economic chance to compete.
Pakalolo used to be an important industrial crop, and we all know how well it grows in Puna...
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what happens too our 32 gal garbage bags small ones for veggies
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quote:
Originally posted by TrevorKane
Pakalolo used to be an important industrial crop, and we all know how well it grows in Puna...
I for one vote a yes on lifting the ban to grow pakalolo for bags.
GREAT IDEA whose time has come.
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quote:
Originally posted by John S. Rabi
There is one in the West Hawaii Today too, in case anyone is interested reading it. http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/...ters04.txt
You go, John!
Personally, I can't forget how everyone had a fit when the world turned to plastic bags - how they'd squash your groceries, etc. I'm used to them, recycle what I don't reuse for umpteen things around the house (incl. dog poo), and don't want to see them go, but hey, whatever happens, happens -- we'll all get used to it.
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Aloha,
Ahh, the great plastic bag debate... :-)
1) plastic bags do not *re*-cycle. They only *down*-cycle. That is, new plastic bags cannot be made from used plastic bags. Some kinds of lower-grade-plastic items can be made. Those will be landfill, or ocean pollution, sooner or later. This is true for most common "throw-away" plastics including water bottles, food/takeout containers, etc.. They only *down*-cycle to a dead end of just plain rubbish.
2) a lot of plastic "recyclable" rubbish - bags, bottles and other flimsy/filmy stuff definitely included - are shipped to third-world countries for "processing" - which mostly means that poorly paid people in inadequate facilities and without adequate protective gear sort through enormous piles of them. And, a significant amount is simply landfilled and/or dumped in the ocean in those other countries, which have far less regulation than we do.
3) There are a few types of plastics that can truly re-cycle. Some I've heard of include institutional carpet tiles and carpets, and some clothing fabrics, mostly from efforts of a few cutting-edge businesses (a few are Interface - carpet; Patagonia - clothing). These are the exception, far from the rule of down-cycling/landfilling/dumping (see below). So far these are more expensive products on average - pollution is still cheaper than true recycling in our bass-ackwards economy.
4) Making plastics from "waste" products of fossil fuel refining/production might be a reasonable thing to do - depending on what is being made and what its *overall* consequences are. Making rubbish from "waste" petroleum products is still making rubbish.
There is a simple principle for materials called "highest use" that ought to be applied more. Use materials for the "highest" (most durable, most beneficial, etc.) uses. Throwaway plastic bags, bottles and other containers would be about the lowest possible use for petroleum plastics, even from "waste" petroleum products. Highest uses would be the most durable, stable, re-usable products possible - stuff that will serve for years or decades instead of thirty minutes (or less) from store to rubbish bin or roadside.
Likewise for other materials - aluminum pop cans are lowest use for aluminum; durable lightweight tools, parts of durable goods/machinery, etc. that can last decades or generations are highest use.
I'm not advocating paper instead, just to be clear. "Paper or plastic" is a lose-lose question.
cheers,
John S.
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