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Daniel, I agree, for the most part, that a lot of the DOH posturing is bluffing. However, given the fact that a few property owners have been using this issue to try to blackmail HPP into paving their roads, I think it might be prudent to have an expert in this area of law advise us. Then we could tell the blackmailers to take a hike based on expert counsel. I am of the old school which says "be prepared," but your point of view is quite valid, too. Nothing may ever happen. Meanwhile, our BOD is still floating around this ridiculous assessment proposal.
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Problem is "expert advice is usually only 50% correct and 100% expensive. IMHO, best thing for HPP to do is NOTHING now. Wait it out. Don't react to pressure. Wait until Health Dept. files suit against HPP. That will open them up to a counter-suit, and they know it. Keep on a poker face, and wait 'til they make da move.
Ed. to add:
HPP has lots of allies out there just waitin' to jump in on HPP's side and the county knows it. You think they want to fire the first shot in this war? They just sabre rattlin', hopin' HPP will cave in.
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The Department of Health is a state agency, not a county agency. This is a perfect example of how the highly centralized government of Hawaii results in a real disconnect between the rural lifestyles of most Outer Island residents, and the big city orientation of the state agencies based in Honolulu. They just don't get it, in so many ways.
I do think all the subdivisions with unpaved "private" roads need to band together and push for a new interpretation of the rule being used against HPP. My understanding is it was originally written for construction sites and never was intended to apply to rural roads.
Carol
Carol
Every time you feel yourself getting pulled into other people's nonsense, repeat these words: Not my circus, not my monkeys.
Polish Proverb
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Did anyone go to the paving meeting last night
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Got my survey in yesterday's mail, and this whole mess now seems even worse than before.
In what is guaranteed to inhibit responses, part 1 of the survey requests a physical address or lot and block number as part of item #10. This is not shown as "optional." It just asks for it without indicating if it is required or not. The author of the survey has already caused the results to be questionable by introducing what is well known to be an inhibiting factor. If people think that the powers that be are pushing this, they will be less likely to respond honestly, or respond at all, if they think their identity will be known. Big FAIL for basic survey construction.
Part two is all over the map with multiple assessment options being floated and a final vague option of "Would you agree to follow reasonable precautions to control fugitive dust?" This last bit is not defined as to whether it would be road maintenance changes with potential costs or expected changes in behavior of drivers, lot owners, etc.
And I'm saving the best (or worst) for last. In the narrative piece that accompanies the survey, we are told, "If the assessment does NOT happen, the board would need to consider raising the fees every year and using the extra to be placed in a paving fund." Now excuse me, but doesn't that sound like they have already decided that paving is the only option? Why go to the expense and trouble of doing an annoyingly ill-constructed survey if you've already made up your mind?
All of this is so bizarre when there hasn't even been a fine yet.
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That's a huge increase in road fees, but I guarantee you that won't pave very many miles of road.
I was at one place (1-2 acre lots) where the county offered to provide all the labor for free if the residents would pay for materials. $2500 per household and it got voted down. Then voted down 2 years later at $3500 per household. Then $5000 per household the last time they offered and that was 15 years ago.
If Hawaii has to ship in asphalt and road oil, it is going to cost a lot. The machinery and labor aren't cheap, either. There will be interest expenses.
So, I would want to see firm bids and I would want to know exactly which roads would get paved.
I suspect it would be cheaper to buy out the complainers.
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Another thought. I did pay for a paved road. 1975, it cost each of us $1500, and the problem was that 3 of the neighbors refused to pay and somebody had to make up that difference.
So what are you going to do about the people who either can not pay or refuse to pay?
I did appreciate that paved road, though. Well worth every penny. I just don't think you are getting much paved for that price.
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I already think the road fee's in HPP are already high...So, there are around 9000 lots in HPP.
So that 2.3 million @ 262 dollars a year. Where does that go? Surly your not using all that money to maintain gravel roads? So you must have some sort of slush fund? Unless my math is wrong that's a lot of $$$ .... Can't you just pave the streets at a slower rate?
I dunno if I lived in HPP (thank god I don't) I'd be looking sell. This sounds like ocean shores WA trick. I think if they pass this there will be a crap load of people trying to unload lots for 5-10K bucks that is if they find any buyers willing to pay taxes + 7-800 road fees every year.
It's not the people that live there. It's the people that bought these lots for an investment that don't even use the roads. These people are going to find it hard to come up with cash in a downed economy.
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I'm always amazed how people gravitate toward the negative without having all the facts and how some people are so ready to spread mis-information. Here's what I know.
#1. The Board members are also lot owners like you and don't want to pay any extra assessments any more than you do.
#2. Other surveys sent out in the past asked the question...."Do you want your road paved....yes or no or "other" but gave no information as to how the paving would be funded. The result is a whole nuther story. This survey asks the same question but gives you the information you need so that intelligent choices can be made.
#3. This survey is an important CYO (Cover your Okole) for YOU, The Association, IF the Association is ever brought to court by those of your neighbors who would hold you hostage. If the Court should ever ask HPPOA if the membership was ever surveyed about their preferences for paving, HPPOA can respond "YES, THE MEMBERSHIP WAS SURVEYED". And the membership response was.............?
#4 IT'S just a SURVEY folks!!! It's not a vote. If you want roads paved and you're willing to pay for it, respond YES, If you want the roads paved but don't want to pay for it, respond NO. If you don't want the roads paved, respond NO! If you don't want to respond at all....don't. If the majority of the responses are positive, at some point a vote will need to be taken and that could result in a big NO no matter what the survey results are.
So, don't forget to BREATHE and show up with an open mind on Sunday at 3pm for the General Membership meeting.
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No one is forgetting to breathe, msky. I'm not part of the usual group of activist "suspects" who make their hobby of being a thorn in the side of the HPP establishment. I work on the mainland a fair amount of time, but I have followed this. The question that I have is why paving is being pushed so hard. A survey like this is not a legal CYA. Try going to court or bureaucratic tribunal with something like this and saying it is a determinant factor. The judge would probably laugh and suggest you fire your lawyer. There's got to be more to this than meets the eye.
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