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I think we need to navigate back to the topic of the threat these axis deer pose to us lawful Hawaiian residents. The pilot in question (just one guy) happens to be a friend of a friend. I don't know him personally. I don't own any guns or ever have. I fiercely hate helicopters and the fact that there are any in Hawaii. However, I do genuinely believe that the aforementioned helicopter pilot did believe he was performing a service to people in Hawaii by introducing deer. I do not question as you (pahoated specifically) mentioned early the threat ungulates can pose to a delicate ecosystem like Hawaii. I guess it just stirred me up to see people casting him in such a bad light! He's not a terrible person out to destroy ecosystems, just perhaps, a tad bit uninformed. I would like to say that despite our certain and specific disagreements I do really appreciate your passion you show for the land. So much Aloha to you.
Cheers
rainyjim
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quote:
Originally posted by rainyjim
However, I do genuinely believe that the aforementioned helicopter pilot did believe he was performing a service to people in Hawaii by introducing deer. I do not question as you (pahoated specifically) mentioned early the threat ungulates can pose to a delicate ecosystem like Hawaii. I guess it just stirred me up to see people casting him in such a bad light! He's not a terrible person out to destroy ecosystems, just perhaps, a tad bit uninformed.
rainyjim, it's exactly this fact that has so many people upset. Tom Hauptman has done a lot of flying work for conservationists and scientists here, they know he is not a bad person but also know he undoubtedly should have known better than to participate in something this destructive!
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RAINYJIM.....
REALLY - you REALLY think the pilot did this for the public good & NOT FOR MONEY?????
The pilot has worked many times for the BIISC, he has stated that he thought it might be "borderline legal", knew the problems BIISC has had with invasive species, and DID NOT CHECK WITH ANYONE TO SEE IF THIS WAS OK...
Nope, I will not give him the benefit of the doubt...
He piloted helicopters full of deer, dropped them off on open land that did not belong to the one who paid him, and knew who he could have checked with to make sure that thus was a "service to the people of the county" or just one big plan by A VERY RICH SPOILED BRAT, and by joining in on the rich spoiled spoiled brats' plan, HE BECAME ANOTHER SPOILED BRAT!
(yes, I do know that at the time it was not illegal, but had been advised against for decades, with many public hearing on the LACK of advisability of introduction of axis deer -meetings the one who pay him to transport the deer had been well aware of... AND THIS PILOT HAD A PAST WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BIISC)
THE ACTIONS OF THE PILOT WAS FOR MONEY, NOT A PUBLIC SERVICE, AND THOSE ACTIONS DID NO-ONE, BUT A FEW SPOILED RICH BRATS, ANY SERVICE!
For the rest of us, his actions will cost us all, right out of our pockets....out of our taxes to try to repair the damage, and on our locally grown food bills...
THAT in my book, is the action of a SPOILED BRAT!!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Midnight Rambler
quote:
Originally posted by pahoated
That is not only a myth, it is a huge whopper of a lie.
That "whoosh" sound was sarcasm going over your head.
So, you were being sarcastic about the hunters' favorite claim, how it is their heritage rights?
The hunters say these large mammals are their "right" to kill. And the original idea for the larger wild pig, deer, mountain sheep and goat was for recreation. Everybody wants to turn Hawaii into their own personal recreation playpen, and make sure to demand it as a "right".
The problem is the recreational reduction is far too small to prevent explosive population growth. What is needed is a more efficient eradication method than currently used. Hunter hopper UAV's operated by multiple DLNR "pilots" in different locations could do multiple stealthy kills, automating the process, possibly keeping the carcasses at lower elevations for retrieval. It's not too far away, the Naval Undergraduate school has already prototyped it with a paint ball gun. Automation and efficiency will reduce the invasive species problem more quickly:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popul...12-mdn.jpg
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popul...712-de.jpg
*Japanese tourist on bus through Pahoa, "Is this still America?*
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The notion that recreational hunting, or any sort of hunting short of a full-on eradication effort by a numerous and well armed cadre of dedicated and proficient hunters, will be useful in controling deer numbers to an acceptable level is something that we must recognize as fanciful. A successful effort, if one is even possible at this point, would eventually be hard work that is not fun as a huge investment in time and resources is made to weed out the last stragglers. Given their secretive and nocturnal habits, any population that will allow a rewarding recreational hunt will be way over the threshold for tolerable damage to agriculture and native species.
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quote:
Originally posted by pahoated
So, you were being sarcastic about the hunters' favorite claim, how it is their heritage rights?
It's not. That's the whole point. People like liskir claim that hunting sheep and deer is a "traditional gathering right", which is patently absurd since there were no sheep and deer here before Europeans arrived.
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I find it hard to buy the notion that Mr. Hauptman believed his actions would please the community. Carrying out the scheme in the clandestine manner that he did suggests he was fully aware that it would meet with broad disapproval. There is a long history of experience in the islands with ungulate introduction since the arrival of pigs brought by the Polynesians and later cattle by Capt. George Vancouver in 1793. The latter resulted in a rapidly uncontrolled cattle population explosion that became a hazard for the population and caused dramatic changes to the landscape of Hawaii. One might assert that the net results of Vancouver's action were not entirely negative, but certainly no one with any sense will deny that there were dramatic consequences to the people and landscape, many of which may have surprised the Captain who must have believed his rather casual and uncontrolled release of the animals served the interests of his countrymen and those of islanders. We, (along with Hauptman and his collaborators) on the other hand, are no longer able to plead such ignorance, having seen the changes wrought by pigs, cattle, and the other ungulates that have since been set loose in the islands. Hauptman and his supporters may object to the denunciation their reckless scheme has caused but I doubt if many of us will have much sympathy. Hopefully their unilateral decision can be rectified and they'll be forgotten along with the Axis deer they apparently felt they must have on this island.
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Yes, the hopeful outcome is Hawaii Island caught the spread of axis deer early enough to eradicate. The original gift to Molokai was around 9 axis deer. This estimate of 100 axis deer on the BI doesn't sound good, from supposedly around 8 brought in a couple years ago and something like 3 confirmed kills so far.
*Japanese tourist on bus through Pahoa, "Is this still America?*
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"For the rest of us, his actions will cost us all, right out of our pockets....out of our taxes to try to repair the damage, and on our locally grown food bills...
THAT in my book, is the action of a SPOILED BRAT!!!!"
I think they're just a couple of deer at the moment, there is no huge existing problem, just a scenario that could occur in the future. Maybe.
and taxes, well I'm sure we should really be worrying about rounding up deer. just forget about the longest war americas ever been in, that isn't anything compared to the cost of shooting some deer on a secluded island in the middle of nowhere. oh wait isn't there all kinds of soldiers training with guns and other killing toys nearby? I bet they'd have a hard time shooting deer, after all it took them like 10 years to kill osammaaa. tracking down the ungulates could be another 1000 or so.
Also, if you could take legal action or action otherwise based solely on people being spoiled brats then what? put them in jail? you want to jail like 99% of the world then?
spoiled brats suck no doubt.
Cheers
rainyjim
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Rainyjim, you REALLY SHOULD GET TO KNOW THE FACTS!!!! not just a friend of a friend of a friend... who may know...
The ADMITTED transport was more than "just a couple of deer" including pregnant deer.... AND the admitted transport was done in 2009 - over 3 years of deer breeding ago.... some of the killed ones have been dated to that drop, but there are others that DO NOT MATCH the drop data that these two have admitted to doing... most likely there were more...
The legal action that was taken against both has been covered, and not only was there legal action but they were CONVICTED of CRIMINAL ACTIONS (not just are they spoiled brats, but they are now also CONVICTED CRIMINALS!!!) that is right, both were convicted of CRIMES...) but only received a slap (500 hours comm service) vs. the MAXIMUM SENTENCE THAT WOULD HAVE INCLUDED JAIL TIME & a hefty fine (that would have ended up costing each of the accused well more than $100k in lost time & fines....)
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