How real is the rascism ?

[Wao nahele kane]

Punababa,
No worries.

- Armed citizens provide security of a free State.

[Derrick Barnicoat]

Very few people understand the concept, context and purpose of term race. It is sad.

Same goes for imperialism which is a european concept, and when I say european I don't mean white. I mean it was europeans who started posting up on other continents and systematically eliminating the people who existed there and would not cooperate with their agenda. It didn't happen the other way around. Sure the Comanche protected their lands. King Kamehameha conquered and unified all the islands. But the terms imperialism and empire imply a certain intent and scale which makes it different from maintaining territory or unifying islands. Under imperialism genocide occurs, biological warfare occurs, demolition of cultures, psychological reprograming. How were the national boundries drawn on the map of continental Africa? I can tell you many kingdoms already existed there and they did not follow those lines you see on a modern map. The kingdoms that do exist only exist now as an example of what once was, as tourist traps and as a desperate way to preserve history.

Now I realize it wasn't all european individuals who were a part of the imperialist movement but it was the the most powerful leaders of that time who were perpetuating these things. Race as a concept was born out of this as a justification of the atrocities being done to the people who were from these conquered areas. Race was a way to explain why others are inferior and thus should be enslaved or eliminated. So that people can execute such horrible acts with out have to deal with their own guilt. Hitler is one of the more modern and obvious examples of this. Although our nation tends to follow the imperialist model in several ways mainly because this nation was built upon the efforts of imperialists and conquistadors. Mind you when Colombus landed in Puerto Rico there was literally hundreds of thousands of people living in the area in which he landed yet he claimed to discover it. This represents a different concept from what the Tainos were living. Sure they had a concept of personal territory but ownership of a continent is another level.

You know, there are shades of grey not everything is black and white. There is a difference between territorial wars between tribes and the development of nations on a piece of land. Then there is the process of developping an advanced slave trade with one decimated continent then heading to another and purposefully making the people sick with disease, showing up with guns, horses, huge ships, new livestock and plants, etc. You could compare it to a brawl most people show up with fists and no intention of getting hurt or hurting but if they have to they will. Then there is the person who brings a bat. Then theres the person who brings a knife. Then there is the person who brings the gun. What is the intention of the person with the gun? No one at a brawl has purely good intentions but the one who shows up with a gun plans to have the whole crowd submit or be killed. That is imperialism.

And when you think about it the Hawaiians treated cook like a god. The native americans welcomed the pilgrims and tried to be diplomatic and coexist with them. They were created with open arms. I know in the part of Africa where my family is from the Europeans were accepted and allowed to live amongst them until they tried to conquer and succeeded there was not much ill will towards new comers. To this day the nation is still getting back on its feet after their war for independence.

Imperialism is humans acting as a cancer upon the earth.

[VancouverIslander]

To say that Imperialism was solely the province of Europeans is blind to history and anthropology. Empire building has been ongoing for an extremely long time. Incas, Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, the Han dynasty, the Egyptian Pharoes, Mesopotamia and many more examples exist from history. Brutality and genocide are more common in history than you would like to believe and may go back as far as Cro-magnon vs Neanderthal, although evidence that far back is somewhat spotty.

[MarkP]

Imperialism is absolutely not "a European Concept". The Iroquois were the political giants east of the Mississippi and were steadily overtaking and subsuming their neighbors at the time that Europeans arrived. There were neighboring tribes that were under their thumb who essentially payed tribute. The book "The League of the Iroquois" published in 1851 casually reported that early in their history as a nation they fought a war that sort of defined them. Seems they had a beef with some people called the Adirondaks who had been giving them grief. No prob. They killed them off in the end, as in no more Adirondaks. Of course political correctness at that time allowed them to be proud of this part of their history. Also, Native Americans were all genetically more closely related to each other than Europeans typically were to other Europeans, so these people weren't of a different race. Phew, that was close! They nearly committed genocide! Fortunately due to this technicality it was only fratricide.

The Iroquois invented a system that worked. Gang up on your enemies. Well, reinvented one, for the 1,000th time. Then the United States invented it for the 1,001st time when we patterned ourselves after them. See, it's all in how you view things.

The Comanches, the Sioux, the Iroquois, and many more killed people to take their stuff. Kamehameha killed lots of other Hawaiians to take their stuff. Anthropological studies of grave sites in the plains from the 1300s, long before significant European contact, showed how shockingly prevalent scalping was. 60% of victims were men. That means 40% were women and children. Survival after scalping was not all that unusual and was evident from healing of the bone where the scalping weapon had scored it. One grave contained the body of a young boy who had survived scalping only to be killed in a later raid.

Pick the most sleazy example of human misbehavior by which you would measure the evils of imperialism. Your heros from the past? Been there, done that.

[Punababa]

Europeans & Americans were latecomers in the business of imperialism there were many before them from all corners of the world, the latecomers are the most sophisticated and developed into a art form. The reason they feature the most in our discussion is not because they were the most brutal that title goes to Genghis Khan and others, but they are the most relevant in today's world particularly in Hawaii.

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkP

Imperialism is absolutely not "a European Concept". The Iroquois were the political giants east of the Mississippi and were steadily overtaking and subsuming their neighbors at the time that Europeans arrived. There were neighboring tribes that were under their thumb who essentially payed tribute. The book "The League of the Iroquois" published in 1851 casually reported that early in their history as a nation they fought a war that sort of defined them. Seems they had a beef with some people called the Adirondaks who had been giving them grief. No prob. They killed them off in the end, as in no more Adirondaks. Of course political correctness at that time allowed them to be proud of this part of their history. Also, Native Americans were all genetically more closely related to each other than Europeans typically were to other Europeans, so these people weren't of a different race. Phew, that was close! They nearly committed genocide! Fortunately due to this technicality it was only fratricide.

The Iroquois invented a system that worked. Gang up on your enemies. Well, reinvented one, for the 1,000th time. Then the United States invented it for the 1,001st time when we patterned ourselves after them. See, it's all in how you view things.

The Comanches, the Sioux, the Iroquois, and many more killed people to take their stuff. Kamehameha killed lots of other Hawaiians to take their stuff. Anthropological studies of grave sites in the plains from the 1300s, long before significant European contact, showed how shockingly prevalent scalping was. 60% of victims were men. That means 40% were women and children. Survival after scalping was not all that unusual and was evident from healing of the bone where the scalping weapon had scored it. One grave contained the body of a young boy who had survived scalping only to be killed in a later raid.

Pick the most sleazy example of human misbehavior by which you would measure the evils of imperialism. Your heros from the past? Been there, done that.

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“petitor veritatis” one who seeks the truth

[Rob Tucker]

I am going to ask you folks to talk your world history discussion elsewhere please. Punaweb is for Puna and Hawaii related topics.

Assume the best and ask questions.

Punaweb moderator

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by kapohololo

when hate on da haoles, not cuz of their skin (racism), but cuz of the way they take lands, rights, native plants, etc...its political, not racial

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Haha, white people talking about racism seems so hypocritical.

[Cheerio]

[/quote]

Haha, white people talking about racism seems so hypocritical.
[/quote]

Do you EVER have anything constructive (ahem, or educated) to say?

White people, and everyone really, SHOULD talk about racism. The key point, though, is to look it through a critical lens. If you've been a beneficiary of privilege by proxy of race, socioeconomic status, etc, you should be fully aware of how this might inform your defensiveness about racism (lots of white people do this - "but I'M not racist!"). If you come from a dominant culture, look at how you've benefited. That said, it's important to talk from both sides. Just because someone has a certain skin color doesn't mean they have to just shut up because of history. Dialogue moves things along and can help us all become better people.

[deserteagle50ae]

Read what AMRITA wrote in the thread about the kalapana murder victim,towards the end of her thread,that should answer you question.

[Punababa]

At least she is honest, she should walk around Puna with that attitude written all over her face !!!!, the dangerous ones are those who pretend to have the “Aloha spirit” but their actions are anything but contrary to that. Poor Amrita is stuck in such a primitive horrible place surrounded by "dangerous natives", wonder why she made that choice ?


“petitor veritatis” one who seeks the truth