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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
All,
I'm off to see Pam shortly and will likely not post here again for a couple of weeks. I will, however, try and get Pam to post something. She's had a bit of trouble logging in but has been reading this thread and a couple of others. She sends everyone here her best wishes.
I'm very troubled about one or two things when it comes to the TMT and much of it has been expressed in this thread. An awful lot of work, effort and money has been spent on making the TMT happen on Mauna Kea, and frankly, I am surprised the project is still here. Other places on the planet would welcome such a project especially given all the benefits and money it will bring. Despite that, the TMT has chosen to be here and just about everyone I have talked to agrees this is a good thing for the island.
Despite all the efforts from both sides to reach a compromise, I was horrified to see a comment here and in the Trib about beheading.
That violent and atrocious behaviour is not something the observatories think anyone here would do. It is an insult from someone who is not connected with the observatories but of course is allowed to say whatever they want. I just want to make it clear that person does not represent the thoughts or opinions of anyone working at the observatories.
I am concerned after all the work everyone on both sides has put in that comments like those will destroy everything we've all worked towards.
Mahalo again for your mana'o. The comment on Tribune Herald's article is nearly verbatim to the post made here re: "beheading". Now I understand clearly what/who we are dealing with. Both supporters and opponents of this project must take a step back, shut the hell up for a New York second, and listen to each other. Communication is the key to common ground.
If we want to talk about future generations (as our kupuna taught us to always consider), the behavior of both sides of this project need to set a better example.
Aloha to Pam, Mr. Tom, and travel safely. Enjoy!
JMO.
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activism certainly may have it's beneficial and important accomplishments in the past, though i also tend to be wary of it's affects on individual psychology and group dynamics. not something i have set out to look for and notice, but rather have experienced at close personal proximity here in Puna in the past over an extended period of time on more than one issue.
some of those negatives i have noticed:
exaggerated or romanticized self-victimization, a tendency to be overly and aggressively self-righteous and judgmental, zealotry, feeding anger both internally and externally, a narrowing of outlook and perspective, overly consumed with a single or select few issues or "mission", rationalization of the ends justifying the means, abundant double standard, fixation on us vs. them/group identity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups, and last but not least... chronically instigating conflict as a matter of habit.
It appears my "beheading" comment has ruffled some feathers.
Let me be real clear here - in fact VERY CLEAR:
My "beheading" comment was made in reference to a videotaped recording of a Native Hawaiian protester calling other Native Hawaiian dignitaries "slimy snakes" and "infidels."
In todays world, using that language in a protest based upon religious beliefs has no standing and no place here.
My comment was SOLEY and ONLY in reference to those words chosen to be used by a Native Hawaiian protester and saying it to Native Hawaiian dignitaries there for the ceremony.
If you must be upset at someone, be upset at the protester.
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I agree with DT. It's all well and good to talk about keeping a cool head. Part of that is accepting things for what they are. Today, the word "Infidel" is inextricably linked to fanatical violence. It is what it is. See it for what it is. Tell it like it is. Of course part of the truth of the world is that young men often shoot their mouths off so I don't seriously see anybody getting beheaded here. Nevertheless it would be an act of dishonesty to deny the link between the word infidel and fanatical violence. The guy made a very, very poor choice of words and if you care about him and his cause in the greater scheme of things you won't further polarize the debate by pretending otherwise.
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was holding back saying so, but i have to strongly agree with both DT and especially MarkP here. i found the outrage at DT's remark oddly and disproportionally misplaced. Mark did a great job describing what i was also thinking in regards to the highly volatile words spoken by the young protestor likely being impulsive and rash, probably not to be taken at face value. still, to be aghast and horrified at pointing out the obvious connotations to current extremist violence is strangely misplaced and seems a little patronizing if anything.
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Infidel, non believer. Why not take the kid for meaning what he said, to him those folks are non believers. Doesn't have anything to do with beheading. Originally meaning non Christian from middle English. Sure Muslims have beheaded so called infidels. So have Christians. That doesn't make the word infidel mean beheading! Once the religion or mysticism or faith or whatever it may be called to you makes an appearance commen sense always seems to be kicked to the curb. I'm sure that most of you are infidels to me. I really doubt any of you share my beliefs. I have a sharp machete,any of you fear for your life. Give me a break Apple does not mean Orange. I know a guy from Pittsburgh. 300+ pound black man actually has his own tv show (cafe racer). I used to ride motorcycles with him. He has a large swastika tattoo on his arm. So one day I say " hey Mike what the hell does a 330 pound black man have a swastika tattoo for. And he said "the swastika is an ancient Roman symbol not a Nazi symbol and that no symbol has any power that is not projected on it by human actions". Guess the same goes for some words.
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fishenjim,
it seems you are arguing that the literal textbook definition of a word is the only interpretation one should ever consider. no nuance, no suggestive language, no poetic license, just literal translation always. so very simple. got it.
edit addition: i hope someone calls the invasive species hotline. it seems we have a report of a contingent of slithering slimy snakes on the summit of Mauna Kea.
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No really pm2 I'm just saying infidel doesn't mean beheading. Take your poetic licence and say it does. If I call you an infidel would you accuse me of threatening to behead you? I would call that a false accusation,or just plain outlandish. It's kind of like word profiling. Also interpreting it that way is sensationalist hype, especially here in Hawaii.IMO.
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fishenjim,
i didn't see anyone say it meant beheading, certainly not me. anyway, it's clear to me this is escaping you and you aren't really paying attention to communication here. any further elaboration on my part with you will likely go nowhere other than where it already has been. that is all.
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dakine, what a disappointingly lame and useless statement, whomever you may believe you are directing that to.
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