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I am confused... I thought the topic of the thread was about Geothermal Health Studies. Perhaps you'd like to add your scientific opinion on those?
Even if Harry Kim had a PhD in geothermal energy, it clearly does not make everything said on the topic correct. You have to actually consider the facts raised, not who is making them.
From the link you provided (thanks by the way - it is a nice summary)
http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/...arl-sagan/
Carl Sagan: "Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts."
Punatic007 can speak for him/herself. If you want to point out where I made an appeal to Harry Kim's geothermal authority please do so, but I believe it would need to be found in another thread. I'll check back tomorrow.
Perhaps geochem will soon have some time to join us as well. Look forward to continuing the real discussion.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
You seem to be quite confused, ironyak. I was asking about Kim's qualifications regarding geothermal. It's a simple request which would allow me to weigh his opinions. Unfortunately, it's no surprise to me that answering the question directly is being avoided by both punatic007 and yourself who have both used him as an appeal to authority.
(BBM) Mr. Tom, Mr. Kim has none, and admits this himself. In our discussion, he stated he is not an "expert", nor is he against geothermal. He wants it done "right". Well, we all do.
His position today comes from being CD Director (safety), moreso than "Mayor" regarding geothermal. The problem is, he IS a politician, which outweighs and alters the credibility of his opinion today.
There are experts in this field (locally and internationally), and when they opine on this specific topic, I listen carefully.
JMO.
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it would be interesting to hear whatever conclusions you come to regarding Harry Kim's authority on geothermal, so we can judge the merits of making an Appeal to Authority.
I know! Let's ask the Director of Environmental Management. Isn't that their job?
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Unbelievable. Ironyak, in this very thread you wrote:
"You're ignoring everything Harry Kim has done in the last few years. He's very up to date and can probably expect testimony and involvement from him as new geothermal legislation comes up this session."
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Morning all.
opihikao - Thanks: agreed about Mr Kim's stating his status as a non-expert. I am not trying to make Harry Kim an authority; TomK appears to be trying to judge statements based on the source. The truth of the information he provides does not rely on his status as an Authority or not - that's why it is a fallacy.
TomK - I'm not sure you understand how an Appeal to Authority fallacy works. If you are around PunaMauka2, perhaps you could weigh in as you've shown a better understanding than most, including myself, of the nuances of different logical fallacies?
I only asserted that Harry Kim has been active lately and is up to date, not that anything he said is true given his "authority". As he just testified last week about the legal standing of the nighttime drilling ban, my statement seems easy to support.
leilanidude - "Besides, what Harry Kim did or didn't do or say 20+ years ago regarding a completely different technology/industry has no real bearing upon what is here, today."
ironyak - "You're ignoring everything Harry Kim has done in the last few years. He's very up to date and can probably expect testimony and involvement from him as new geothermal legislation comes up this session."
Given this is completely off-topic now, let's continue this discussion at whatever length needed over here:
http://punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20590
EDIT: Link and typos
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Originally posted by opihikao
There are experts in this field (locally and internationally), and when they opine on this specific topic, I listen carefully.
As you have much experience here, any resources you are willing to share regarding health studies or impacts from geothermal are very welcome. Expert information, both local and international, always helps provide new insights and support for differing views.
Well if we are back to our spitting and mud flinging ways, I want some.
Ironyak you have been awesome throughout these geothermal discussions, providing several dozen well worth the reading links. I agree Harry Kim may not be an expert at geothermal drilling, he has his past experiences with them and an opinion, I do care to listen when he speaks.
TomK you a true gentleman, thank you.
Experts on this type of geothermal experimental drilling we have here in Puna are rare, they usually don't live here either. Experts need readings, numbers, and facts to help determine or make their best guesses. This Ormat owned and operated geothermal plant in Puna has been very sneaky and dirty for decades now. Can't trust much that comes from their profit lined pockets, they have not even had working air monitors during blowouts or releases. They have made promises to the community many times, yet very rarely do they follow up and complete them.
Their experts once said a poisonous blowout at this plant was a 1 in a thousand chance. Do we as a community need to wonder how unlucky we really are, or can we think this dirty neighbor may not really know all that much about hawaiian aina after all?
This position we are all in now as a community (many lawsuits), was caused by our state and county allowing geothermal to remain, or become a neighbor. It may be time to move the plant again, this time finding a better place to cause less damage to the environment and its good people, jmo. Why was this experimental drilling moved a couple times in the past? Well geothermal experts should recognize the patterns by now and encourage a few changes for the better. If geothermal can drill on Maui or in Kona now with their very advanced 20th century technology, well then our community asking them(Ormat) to move up mountain a few miles and continue production seems like a logical and practical request.
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quote:
Originally posted by ironyak
Originally posted by opihikao
There are experts in this field (locally and internationally), and when they opine on this specific topic, I listen carefully.
As you have much experience here, any resources you are willing to share regarding health studies or impacts from geothermal are very welcome. Expert information, both local and international, always helps provide new insights and support for differing views.
ironyak, I leave you to do your own homework (you do have great research skills), as my opinion is based on geothermal experts/scientists, combined with my own perception and experiences (over the course of many years). I am biased. There are those here far more credible with information, like "geochem", and others.
Additionally, the continued dissection of statements/comments made leaves too much room for misinterpretation and/or debate. Not my cup of tea.
JMO.
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Ironyak,
"I only asserted that Harry Kim has been active lately and is up to date, not that anything he said is true given his "authority". As he just testified last week about the legal standing of the nighttime drilling ban, my statement seems easy to support."
I get where you're coming from, ironyak, and my apologies if you think I've come down hard on you. You come across as very intelligent and someone I'd love to debate.
If you look back in the this thread, all I asked is why Harry Kim's name was coming up so often, and in a thread discussing health assessment and studies, wanted to know why, and what his expertise was. The replies were a little surprising, as in that's not something I should be asking.
As a scientist, I tend to want to know everything involved in the research so I can weigh things. References, cites and the background of those making claims.
I apologise if you felt offended by this, but sometimes asking questions that make people feel uncomfortable is the way to go. And I'm still not convinced Harry Kim's opinions are worth very much. But everyone is welcome to their opinions.
With aloha,
Tom
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Evening opihikao.
Your bias is no doubt hard-earned through your years of research and direct experience. You have shown a lot of balance in your comments regarding mistakes made by all the parties involved. I would hope that you would consider continuing to share your perspective and insight on this matter with all of us.
I apologize if I sound overly analytical or determined to dissect what others say. Science tends to require very precise language and an examination of meanings, both stated and implied. When you have to stand-up and present findings in front of others far more knowledgeable than yourself, you learn to be very careful in what you say and how you say it, but it is probably unrealistic to project this expectation on others here.
I will do my best to temper this instinct for dissecting statements and try to reserve it for the scientists' input as it's a standard expectation for our vocations. I do value others' opinions, and don't want to drown out other perspectives. If anyone has ideas, comments, questions, or quips, please add them! I have no interest in making an echo chamber.
We have not always (or even often  agreed on this and other matters, but I do hold you in high regard. As I've said at other times, we are all very fortunate to have your presence here.
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