State Judge rules Hawaiian Kingdom still exists

[Rob L]

Interesting circularity here. If the state court judge accepted that the Hawaiian Kingdom really exists, then he accepts that his authority under the state of Hawaii is void, thus his judicial notice that the Hawaiian Kingdom exists is void.

The Republic was a sham, but it really did overthrow the Queen and it was recognized by the powers that recognized Hawaii as the de facto government. The Republic recognized the US annexation, which pretty much waived any problem of treaty vs. act of Congress. The UN recognized the statehood referendum. So, the basis for saying that the Kingdom still exists is a collections of disconnected legal arguments that don't really hold together.

The overthrow of the Kingdom was illegal and carried out by a minority of traitors, the Republic wasn't a Republic because the majority of citizens would have voted it out of existence if they had been allowed to. The whole thing was shameful and wrong. But that didn't mean that the overthrow was not recognized by international law. Most of the countries of the world did not accept consent of the governed as a basis for legitimacy at the end of the 19th century. The Republic of Hawaii was no worse than many others. After WWI and the Treaty of Versailles, the use of popular referenda or plebiscites to determine sovereignty was recognized under international law. To be valid a plebiscite or referendum has to be open to all, not just those of a particular ethnicity. The statehood referendum met those criteria and really did close the book on the issue of whether or not Hawaii is a state of the the United States.

Aloha,
Rob L

[PaulW]

Let's have another vote. Maybe we can get 95% this time. Would that settle it?

[rainyjim]

Thanks Paul,

I don't know why I thought that about the ballot. I stand corrected.

[MarkP]

I'm not saying that the overthrow didn't happen or wasn't wrong but I gag a bit when required to suspend my disbelief that things would have been any different if the US had stood back and let nature take its course. Russia or Japan would have swept in like a shark on a wounded whale. For the record I am fine with the Nation within a Nation concept as it has been applied to other Native American people. I also think that might making right played a large part in pre-contact Hawaiian culture as well as pre-contact Native American culture. How could it not? I think that history shows that cultures around the world and throughout history have behaved pretty much the same. People have always done exactly what they can get away with. Nothing more and nothing less.

[TomK]

What would be the benefits to all, not just Hawaiian royalty, if Hawaii became an independent country? I've not yet read anything about how this would actually benefit anyone at all, but am sure dakine must have thought of it.

So please go ahead, dakine, please let us know how the islands will improve under Hawaiian independence whilst returning to a royal family.

Thanks.

[PunaMauka2]

both MarkP and TomK's comments tie in with my thoughts on the subject lately.

i believe there is often a seductive tendency to romantically idealize past culture, perhaps wistfully (..or in some cases, pridefully) imagining our various ancestors to have lived more nobly and justly, being the embodiment of the true "original" from our perspective. in actuality it is likely our rose colored glasses casting a utopian hue on what was almost certainly a much messier and oftentimes unjust prehistory with an ample share of atrocity and suffering likely with "true original" victims of it's own.


we can and do choose what to define our identity around. a culture past or present, locality...

(HPP vs. Orchidland, Puna vs. Kau, Kona side vs. Hilo side, Big Island vs. Oahu, Hawaii vs. mainland),...

...interests, profession, hobby, whatever. i think it's been well proven identity heavily formed around "race" can get ugly especially quick and easy. i certainly won't be tolerating any attempt to reform Hawai'i into a society where some racial measurement has any bearing on the level of rights of those living in the here and now. democracy and hard earned constitutional rights are way up there on the list. count me out of any throwback wading through privileged tyranny trying to claw back up again.

[Lee M-S]

If I can't eat bananas, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


><(((*< ... ><(("< ... ><('< ... >o>

[DTisme]

quote:

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i certainly won't be tolerating any attempt to reform Hawai'i into a society where some racial measurement has any bearing on the level of rights of those living in the here and now.

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Amen to that.

[leilanidude]

"...it's achievements have come at the cost of atrocities, genocide, and an endless stream of human and environmental nightmares. "

Sure sounds a lot like what the Hawaiian's did?

[MarkP]

I have problems with your viewpoint, Dakine. It is inherently racist. It sounds nice to say that Native Hawaiians have a special rapport with the aina and the ocean. You go so far as to invoke racial memory. AFAIK there is no such thing that has been proven although many have suggested that various racial groups do have certain innate cultural characteristics. Usually this principal is called upon to describe why "those people" are the root of all society's problems.

Many of the Hawaiian Kingdom's citizens were not Native Hawaiian. To invoke the sanctity of the Hawaiian Kingdom as it existed just prior to the overthrow but then say only nobody who isn't Native Hawaiian is nonsensical.

The isolation of Hawaii will serve as a natural barrier, but Hawaii won't be an Eden then just as it wasn't an Eden 500 years ago. Native Hawaiians don't innately have any more of what it takes to live sustainably than anybody else. A few pockets of culture around the world, not restricted to Hawaiians, do have some of what it takes. Some Hawaiians have what it takes. Some Europeans do too but most don't. I mean most humans don't. Using Hawaii as an example if you sent a bunch of Hawaiian Sovereignty activists back a few hundred years in a time machine, most would probably be dead within hours of stepping out and many more would be crying to come back ASAP. That would be the fate of most Europeans too if you sent them back to medeivel Europe.

So what I gleaned from your post was Hawaiians can do no wrong blah blah blah Europeans are innately sick blah blah blah magical thinking genetic memory blah blah blah never mind the entire history of the human race Hawaii will be an Eden if we just turn back the clock blah blah blah...