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Interesting discussion. Just to add a little spice, new research that questions many assumptions we hold near and dear to our hearts, for example the impact of culture on behavior, cognition, even our individual "hardwiring". Here's a fascinating article that touches on the concept of "cultural memory" (but definitely not "racial"). A snippet:
"Studies show that Western urban children grow up so closed off in man-made environments that their brains never form a deep or complex connection to the natural world. While studying children from the U.S., researchers have suggested a developmental timeline for what is called “folkbiological reasoning.” These studies posit that it is not until children are around 7 years old that they stop projecting human qualities onto animals and begin to understand that humans are one animal among many. Compared to Yucatec Maya communities in Mexico, however, Western urban children appear to be developmentally delayed in this regard. Children who grow up constantly interacting with the natural world are much less likely to anthropomorphize other living things into late childhood.
Given that people living in WEIRD societies don’t routinely encounter or interact with animals other than humans or pets, it’s not surprising that they end up with a rather cartoonish understanding of the natural world. “Indeed,” the report concluded, “studying the cognitive development of folkbiology in urban children would seem the equivalent of studying ‘normal’ physical growth in malnourished children.”
http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/j...mics-53135
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
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thank you for that quoted below, MarkP ...saved me a bit of typing in response to dakine's loopy and highly loaded original.
he really lost me at "western mind" and it's sickness which is destroying the world (i guess i will have to inform my various dear friends and extended family of their genetically predisposed sick western mind and why they may have to leave so the new Hawaii Kingdom can lead the way to save the world ...cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo). was reminded of some of those old sweeping prejudiced generalizations from the colonial era about the so-called "asian mind", etc. switch out a few of the subjects in dakine's little heartfelt speech there and we could have a diatribe somewhat comparable to that coming out of 1930's Berlin or 1960's Alabama. how delightful.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
I have problems with your viewpoint, Dakine. It is inherently racist. It sounds nice to say that Native Hawaiians have a special rapport with the aina and the ocean. You go so far as to invoke racial memory. AFAIK there is no such thing that has been proven although many have suggested that various racial groups do have certain innate cultural characteristics. Usually this principal is called upon to describe why "those people" are the root of all society's problems.
Many of the Hawaiian Kingdom's citizens were not Native Hawaiian. To invoke the sanctity of the Hawaiian Kingdom as it existed just prior to the overthrow but then say only nobody who isn't Native Hawaiian is nonsensical.
The isolation of Hawaii will serve as a natural barrier, but Hawaii won't be an Eden then just as it wasn't an Eden 500 years ago. Native Hawaiians don't innately have any more of what it takes to live sustainably than anybody else. A few pockets of culture around the world, not restricted to Hawaiians, do have some of what it takes. Some Hawaiians have what it takes. Some Europeans do too but most don't. I mean most humans don't. Using Hawaii as an example if you sent a bunch of Hawaiian Sovereignty activists back a few hundred years in a time machine, most would probably be dead within hours of stepping out and many more would be crying to come back ASAP. That would be the fate of most Europeans too if you sent them back to medeivel Europe.
So what I gleaned from your post was Hawaiians can do no wrong blah blah blah Europeans are innately sick blah blah blah magical thinking genetic memory blah blah blah never mind the entire history of the human race Hawaii will be an Eden if we just turn back the clock blah blah blah...
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So, Im curious as to what constitution the Hawaii regional govt would pick? would it be more like the 1887 or 1840 or one of the other half dozen versions, Some which placed the King above the law and some which placed the king as a lesser figurehead like the UK and their parliament. So far I see a lot of fanciful thought by those who want to have Hawaii back to its own sovereign country. But I dont see anyone talking about what form this government would really take. What about property rights and title? Would the original land grants go to the original families which sold them at a profit, only to profit again or what. What about property taxes? The original land grants were allodial in title, which means there was no taxes on them. Legally there should not be now.
What about the basic right of the individual to own firearms. That wasn't in the original Hawaii constitution. I bet it would still be sovereign lands had they put that in one of them or perhaps the monarchy was afraid of their own citizens?
Between all the new people Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, Filipinos and some being here generations, who counts as Hawaiian? Or perhaps its just assumed that those of 100% quantum blood Hawaiian will rule and the rest will be relegated to serfdom.
I think the upside down flag crew needs to really address these issues and others if they expect to get all the folks on board. If not its going to be a hard sell.
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punafish - thanks for your post and the link. Really interesting stuff. Being an animal lover I tend to anthropomorphize quite a bit even though the logical part of my brain tells me none of the animals I talk to understand a word I'm saying!
I still say "hello" to my last surviving 18-year-old cat though, and she always meows back. It's comforting.
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quote:
Originally posted by kander
So, Im curious as to what constitution the Hawaii regional govt would pick? would it be more like the 1887 or 1840 or one of the other half dozen versions, Some which placed the King above the law and some which placed the king as a lesser figurehead like the UK and their parliament. So far I see a lot of fanciful thought by those who want to have Hawaii back to its own sovereign country. But I dont see anyone talking about what form this government would really take. What about property rights and title? Would the original land grants go to the original families which sold them at a profit, only to profit again or what. What about property taxes? The original land grants were allodial in title, which means there was no taxes on them. Legally there should not be now.
What about the basic right of the individual to own firearms. That wasn't in the original Hawaii constitution. I bet it would still be sovereign lands had they put that in one of them or perhaps the monarchy was afraid of their own citizens?
Between all the new people Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, Filipinos and some being here generations, who counts as Hawaiian? Or perhaps its just assumed that those of 100% quantum blood Hawaiian will rule and the rest will be relegated to serfdom.
I think the upside down flag crew needs to really address these issues and others if they expect to get all the folks on board. If not its going to be a hard sell.
I am still waiting to find out who the "king" actually is. For folks who want to reinstate the Hawaiian KINGdom you would think they would have a king in mind.
Also, are the other islands allowed that were illegally annexed under Kamehameha allowed to form their own governments and seek redress against the Kingdom for their actions.
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Tom, I'd say many pets understand many words and some short sentences like - "Want to go for a ride?". Even our cats understand some short sentences, though they often ignore us "(pet name here), come here.", "Want some food?", etc. That being said, I doubt they would understand what you did for a living if you told them. 
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Mtviewdude,
This whole Hawaiian Kingdom issue will be interesting to watch pan out (assuming it does). I'd agree, they need to establish who the rightful heir is to the crown/throne or what ever they called it. Who's the head of the monarchy? Does that individual want to re-establish the Kingdom? Is that choice up to them? Etc. Maybe the head of the monarchy doesn't want to re-establish the Kingdom. In a modern global society, kingdoms that still exist beyond namesake aren't exactly considered the cutting edge of modern governing technique. It could prove more harmful than beneficial... who knows for certain?
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quote:
Originally posted by punafish
Interesting discussion. Just to add a little spice, new research that questions many assumptions we hold near and dear to our hearts, for example the impact of culture on behavior, cognition, even our individual "hardwiring". Here's a fascinating article that touches on the concept of "cultural memory"...
http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/j...mics-53135
Thanks for the link punafish. For me, that article says so much that is applicable to any attempt to understand the dynamics of the cultural conflicts being played out in Hawaii today.
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Thank you for taking time to read it TomK and dakine, I wish everyone would. Whatever one's beliefs, lots of food for thought there. I agree the insights and content are applicable to understanding Hawaiian culture. But also applicable to understanding any culture. Lots of big assumptions are being questioned...
It's apparent that dakine's stance rubs some folks the wrong way. But I can relate to some of his points--even though I see value in building the telescope.
But frankly I don't think it's my call, not morally anyway; the telescope won't directly affect me or my children. As I see it, local stakeholders (including newbies, old-timers, Hawaiians, Japanese, Filipinos, etc) who will be affected by this need to determine their own future. And the Hawaiians need to have not just a voice, but many voices. I choose to defer to the local stakeholders out of respect, and hope they do the right thing.
The opinions expressed on this thread have given me pause to think and rethink my own beliefs, and I'm grateful for all voices and points of view. As someone who lives and works in the cross-cultural world, I admire dakine for the empathy he's nurtured toward the Hawaiians through his work and friendships here.
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
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The following is from Hawaiian Kingdom Constitution of 1893 found at this link: http://www.hawaii-nation.org/constitution-1893.html
Article 21 of the 1893 Hawaiian Constitution decrees the following -
"The government of this Kingdom is that of a constitutional monarchy, under Her Majesty Liliuokalani, her heirs and successors.
Considering the above Article, it seems the only legitimate declaration with regard to a Hawaiian Kingdom would have to come from "Her Majesty Liliuokalani, her heirs and successors"
Obviously Her Majesty Liliuokalani is no longer alive thus it leaves her Heirs unless there's been a successor established under this Constitutions prerequisites.
Have any of the Constitutionally established rightful Heirs of Her Majesty Liliuokalani stepped forward to lay claim and or re-establish the said Constitutional Monarchy of Hawaii? Without that, a move to lay claim to the Kingdom could be considered an act of treason and or subversion should a rightful heir step forward after someone or a group of someone's who weren't rightfully Heirs began re-establishment of the Kingdom.
It sounds like a real sticky situation unless there's an inarguably qualified Heir willing to take the reigns or at minimum work out the legal details to hand over the authority to others and then execute it legally under the confines of the 1864 Constitution and the laws established under it. I see countless hours of legal work involved.
Edit to reference the latest Constitution.
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After doing a little digging to find out about her Heirs, I came across the following which dramatically affects Article 21 of the Hawaiian Constitution. From the following link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liliuokalani
"I, Lili'uokalani, by the Grace of God and under the constitution of the Hawaiian Kingdom, Queen, do hereby solemnly protest against any and all acts done against myself and the constitutional government of the Hawaiian Kingdom by certain persons claiming to have established a Provisional Government of and for this Kingdom. That I yield to the superior force of the United States of America, whose Minister Plenipotentiary, His Excellency John L Stevens, has caused United States troops to be landed at Honolulu and declared that he would support the said Provisional Government. Now, to avoid any collision of armed forces and perhaps loss of life, I do, under this protest, and impelled by said forces, yield my authority until such time as the Government of the United States shall, upon the facts being presented to it, undo the action of its representative and reinstate me in the authority which I claim as the constitutional sovereign of the Hawaiian Islands.
— Queen Lili'uokalani, Jan 17, 1893[12]"
Assuming the above is correct, she transferred the reinstatement authority to the Untied States. That being said, it was only to reinstate her. So... now it looks to be in limbo unless the United States perhaps comes up with some reinstatement legal loophole. What a mess!
Edit to delete copy paste code error to enter asterisk in Queen Lili'uokalani name.
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