Posts: 240
Threads: 4
Joined: Dec 2014
Originally posted by lavalava
I can only imagine how todays Kanakas feel about their past. It must suck looking back and wishing that your people would have stood firm against the corporate takeover of their land. I would be pissed knowing that big money backed by military might basically took over my homeland and my ancestors did not fight back. But that fight is over. Welcome to present day. Time to move forward not back.
There's that darned attitude. Disrespectful, arrogant and ignorant.
Born&Raised Hawai'i Island
Born&Raised Hawai'i Island
Posts: 1,217
Threads: 18
Joined: Jan 2014
Well I wish you nothing but the best in your future negotiations with the Federal Government of the United States of America. Just don`t hold your breath or get your hopes up too high as old Uncle Sam isnt exactly known for giving any aboriginal/first nations a fair deal.
Posts: 1,406
Threads: 25
Joined: Jun 2013
From Vincent Keala Lucero, on Facebook;
A friend asked me the other day what the big deal was with the TMT (Thirty Meter Telescope) and why people are protesting on Mauna Kea. Let's see...
Keep in mind that our governor recently tried to appoint a pro-development lobbyist to head the Hawaii State Board of Land and Natural Resources (BLNR), the land manager responsible for all CONSERVATION district lands.
The BLNR is required to collect "fair market" lease rents for the use of the Mauna Kea’s public lands. Currently, national and international observatories are only required to pay $1.00 per year to lease Mauna Kea’s public and ceded lands. This is unreasonable and it violates the law.
The BLNR is planning to issue the University of Hawai‘i (UH) new leases for another 65 years. The current BLNR lease is scheduled to end in the year 2033, but apparently, this date is not good enough for UH and the other observatories.
Mauna Kea Conservation District Lands are watershed, historic, environmentally and culturally sensitive lands and therefore have special protective status under Hawai‘i law. In fact, any activity that will have adverse impacts on the natural, historic and cultural resources of Mauna Kea are NOT permitted by law and BLNR is tasked with enforcing these laws. The University has already admitted that 45 years of astronomy development has resulted in "adverse, significant, and substantial impacts" to the natural and cultural resources of Mauna Kea.
In 1998, the State Auditor, found that BLNR and UH’s oversight and protections of the natural and cultural resources of Mauna Kea is inadequate to ensure the protection of natural resources. The University neglected historic preservation laws and the cultural value of Mauna Kea was largely unrecognized.
Lastly, BLNR is not fulfilling its constitutionally mandated duty to protect all rights customarily and traditionally exercised for subsistence, cultural and religious purposes.
Posts: 10,254
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
Dakine,
Thanks for your reply. I'm only going to use snippets of your post to respond to otherwise things get too long and unreadable. I'm also not in the best of health right now so forgive for being brief:
"The project was done under contract for Bishop Museum, and at one point considered for publication by Sky and Telescope who were very encouraging though it never went to press for various reasons. If you really want to read the manuscript I still have it along with all the material that was intended for inclusion in the final product, just let me know."
I would be interested in reading it. I'm also currently involved in a couple of books about Mauna Kea and astronomy (one about UKIRT, one about astronomy in general) and would love to see how it compares. You should be able to email me via PW, if not, just reply here, we can find another way.
"Btw Tom, my point about your scope not being a direct competitor to the larger scopes still stands. Not to say, and I didn't say, yours is not viable. I just think it's like saying one could get the same results with a wide angle verses a telephoto lens, though maybe the analogy isn't spot on, I do sense the two, yours and TMT, would be used for different lines of enquiry. I also imagine viewing hours on yours would be much less expensive than on the TMT so a researcher wouldn't even consider the bigger scopes unless their interests required them. As such I imagine there's no direct competition. Am I missing something there?"
The point you make is not a bad one, it definitely has something to it, but some of the observations we used to do, especially follow-up observations with spectrometers after survey work can be done so much faster with the TMT (or the Kecks, Subaru and Gemini) that in that respect they will be a direct competitor. However, I suspect what might happen with the TMT, assuming it is actually built and UKIRT still exists then, is that UKIRT will act as a finder. This is sort of happening now with the other 8-10 meter telescopes, but in the past we used to do our own follow-ups, but in many cases we can do those observations it's just so much faster to do them elsewhere.
As for Subaru, Kecks and Gemini, TMT will be a direct competitor as it will have similar capabilities and but much larger and therefore much more sensitive. This is the problem the 4-meter class telescopes faced in the 8-meter era and the one faced by the 2.5 meter class telescopes when 4-meter telescopes were built. Most find a niche (like UKIRT has done in the last few years), but it is challenging. It's going to be a very interesting next decade in astronomy.
There's a lot more I could write but that's about it for tonight. I need to go back to bed...
Please excuse any typos, nonsense etc. No energy left to proof read.
Posts: 10,254
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
Snorkle - really quick point - the observatories pay rent to UH in observing time, 15% of available time. This can amount to the equivalent of nearly $1 million a year (in the case of the JAC) to much more at other observatories.
Posts: 1,406
Threads: 25
Joined: Jun 2013
Yes, I understand, observing time for UH.... Along with $5, that will get a Kanaka a Latte Grande Mocha Thingie.
This Wednesday, there will be an Island wide demonstration of support for the protectors from 3-6 pm. In Hilo near the Wailoa Bridge(Suison), or wherever people gather.
Posts: 10,254
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
Snorkle - not sure you do understand. That money the observatories spend to support UH observations is used for education of STEM subjects. Without it, the UH would have to find that money from elsewhere, possibly the students. However, the point is the observatories have a large rent/lease cost and if if that to be changed so it goes elsewhere, how does the UH keep its physics, maths and astronomy courses funded? Double rent isn't going to go down well with the observatories, and I don't see other more destructive industries on the island having to pay double rent.
If you want to change things, then talk to UH.
Posts: 4,910
Threads: 83
Joined: Feb 2009
quote:
Originally posted by snorkle
Yes, I understand, observing time for UH.... Along with $5, that will get a Kanaka a Latte Grande Mocha Thingie.
This Wednesday, there will be an Island wide demonstration of support for the protectors from 3-6 pm. In Hilo near the Wailoa Bridge(Suison), or wherever people gather.
Most will be gathering while they line up for the Hoike Performances.
Nice try to get people to meet somewhere else so you can get a better seat !
Posts: 11,036
Threads: 752
Joined: Sep 2012
Wow, when did jobs become a central or even tangential aspect of this discussion? But seriously man...
dakine -
If you read the thread you'll see I was responding to comments made earlier. I wasn't trying to divert the discussion, I was asking for clarification on statements I didn't completely understand.
I did see the article to which punafish posted a link. If you're interested in a longer discussion on the similarities and differences between world cultures I would highly recommend "Religion in Human Evolution" by Robert N. Bellah. He focuses on Israel, Greece, China, and India, but there's also a short section on Hawaii. He describes the changes Hawaii went through from an initial settlement of possibly 50 people, growing to a simple chiefdom, regional chiefdoms, then a kingdom. Quite pertinent to this exchange about the TMT.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
Posts: 3,206
Threads: 108
Joined: Jun 2010
Snorkle, interesting... What were the substantial and adverse impacts reported?
Anyone have input on my other questions above?
|
