TMT groundbreaking - live

[Southernmost]

Obie, me too!!!

Born&Raised Hawai'i Island


Eta: Obie, is Ryan Hiroka and Keala Kawaauhau scumbags?
They wrote that song.

[Guest]

Why can't this same telescope be put on top of Mt Fuji in Japan? The DOE here in Hawaii is all messed up and really only dumbing down many of our keiki. The million or two this scope could bring our keiki would only be spent on temp buildings or paid to lawyers to help battle abuse cases.
These observatories have been on the mountain as eyesores for decades now and I have not seen any money go into Pahoa high from it? The geothermal plant has been operational now for decades too, yet no difference made for the keiki who live near or around it. Pahoa and other public schools keiki still have no air conditioning or working computers in their classrooms, how much would this really cost the DOE? Its the keiki today who will have to live with these power plants on their farm land and gigantic telescopes on our sacred mountains.
P.S. really all of the 12 or 13 other observatories on MaunaKea are illegal as well as this new one they want to build. Enough is enough. Get hundreds of mountains around the world this telescope could fit on, so change venues and allow these people to rest with their mountain, jmo. I vote for Mt Fuji to own it, then the keiki in Japan can afford and have working computers. DOE here in hawaii is to wasteful and has their priorities to messed up to believe in this new carrot.

[punafish]

Racism is an invented human construct. It's a myth that's been used to justify atrocities throughout history by people of all "races."

But culture is real, as much as some folks would like to dismiss its influence on the discussion. Contrary to a comment made earlier in the thread, this is ALL about culture folks, whatever side you happen to be on. Not only can you NOT separate culture from politics, it's hard to separate from anything.

Sometimes we get tangled up in our race-inspired myths and paradigms. When SM calls me a "haole" it's tempting to take it in a racist sense. But after living here for 9 years, I've come to interpret it as a way of saying that I'm not a member of Hawaiian culture. And it's true, I'm not, so no offense taken. It also inspires me to learn more about Hawaiian culture, and the locals have always been kind and enthusiastic about teaching those who want to learn.

Some people relish debate and feel it's very important to "win the argument." Other folks make a career out of being offended. Can't help but think that a little more empathy and little less trying to be "right" might inspire folks to seek common ground. One can dream, right?

[leilanidude]

The geothermal plant has been operational now for decades too, yet no difference made for the keiki who live near or around it.
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I don't want this to go unnoticed. gypsy - you need to get your head out of your a$$. PGV has been offering college scholarships, among other things, for many years, only to Pahoa and HAAS students.


back on topic - Southernmost points me out in this thread - and all I mentioned is that the society that Hawaii's kingdom had kept going was an extremely violent one and those royalty types had no qualms in destroying the aina purely for personal gain. Remember what happened to sandalwood trees for one example?

[kalakoa]

Remember what happened to sandalwood trees for one example?

Great example: wasn't that a post-contact incident, before which the Kingdom didn't have these kinds of problems?

[snorkle]

Some Protector talking points;



1. The TMT has been given permits but we appealed in court. When a judge grants an appeal, he is saying that he has see the evidence and there is merit to what we are saying. So we think the TMT should not start construction untill the court process is pau.

2. the place they want to build is - in a conservation district which carries 8 criteria that a project has to meet. For instance, A project must add to the natural beauty.... a project cannot have an adverse, significant, and substantial impact on the area, (they admit it will), a project can't increase land use, ...

3. It will be put in an area that has known burials and is also called "the ring of shrines". It is a pristine area on the Northern plateau. And is a historic district.

4. The TMT corp has received 18 mil$ in federal grants. When a project uses federal $ it has a federal process they have to go through known as the 106 process. They also need to be doing a federal EIS (environmental impact statement). They first denied they received any federal $ until we showed them the grants from NSF (national science foundation). Being a historic district requires them to go through these federal processes as well.

5. Mauna Kea is a sacred place for native hawaiians who believe it to be their place of origin. It is a place where Hawaiians still hold ceremony, go to pray, take the piko of their newborn, build ahus, etc. There was an overwhelming majority of hawaiians and cultural practitioners who were interviewed for the cultural impact study who said no more telescopes on their sacred mountain.

6. Mauna Kea is designated as a National Natural Landmark and will most likely loose that designation according to comments made by the national park rep who commented on the state EIS.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

this is ALL about culture folks, whatever side you happen to be on. Not only can you NOT separate culture from politics, it's hard to separate from anything.

punafish, I would only add that culture is also a survival mechanism. In primitive times the world really was your tribe against their tribe, and it was a matter of life and death. If you crossed over into "their" territory while hunting or gathering you would pay, therefore it was important to recognize who the other people were by their outward appearance, skin color, hair, clothing...

That's why we still feel it's so important to win a discussion, and try to convince others that we're right. It's the part of our nature that allowed our ancestors to survive. It's why we like sports. It simplifies inter-tribal contact to a proxy meeting between two tribes (teams) with different colored uniforms. What becomes important is not how you play the game, it's whether you win or lose.

If we pause though, and look a little closer we can see what's truly important IS how we play the game, and live our life.

[Guest]

Thanks leilanidude. Really wanted to get off the racist direction and to something more constructive or at least a little closer to the TMT topic. I would like to know as much as possible about the scholarships offered to the Puna keiki from Ormat? My real point is that the keiki graduating from some of these Public schools like Pahoa are not ready to be successful in college if they even can go. They have plenty of catch up learning with the computers and lesson work that needs to he done to adjust in college, makes it difficult for some keiki.
Studies have shown air-conditioning rooms can help some think and be more productive. Studies have shown that computers used or shared in classrooms help many keiki with study and learning habits. Why does so much money go towards scholarships for few, when many could benefit from added classroom computers?.
Back to the real topic of TMT. Again select few stand to gain more money by selling off another 6.9 acres of land on top of Maunakea, that they don't even own rightfully themselves. The courts have much to decide before these types of commitments or forever lasting moonballs are put in place. Very disrespecting how so many outsiders are telling these island people how to live, or what to believe in.

[shockwave rider]

quote:

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Originally posted by gypsy69

My real point is that the keiki graduating from some of these Public schools like Pahoa are not ready to be successful in college if they even can go. They have plenty of catch up learning with the computers and lesson work that needs to he done to adjust in college, makes it difficult for some keiki.

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I call BS on this.
I have known many kids who graduated from Pahoa who got full ride scholarships from good universities on the mainland and did just fine. In fact, some of them got the scholarships because they graduated from what is called a "disadvantaged" community due to the poverty and isolation of Puna.

As far as having to have AC goes, I started school every year in August in 90+ degree heat and very high humidity that lasted until October. I never went to an air conditioned school, it was hot and sweaty and we still managed to learn, just like generations of kids did for all those years before central AC became the norm.

[punafish]

HOTPE, good point, culture is absolutely a survival mechanism.

It's also worth mentioning that the value on "truth" happens to be a big one in Western culture. And to get to the elusive truth, the Greeks invented the dialectic. Now 2,500 years later we engage in and are comfortable with public debate, unlike some of our Asian brothers who come from cultures that give priority to group harmony, cohesiveness and working things out behind the scenes (in a way, I might add, that allows all sides to maintain their dignity).

How does this relate to the telescope? I can assure you that these gaps in mindset routinely create friction and discord in cross-cultural negotiations and relationships. And while I am not an authority on Hawaiian culture, I suspect that showing the host culture respect would go a long way in facilitating a meaningful dialogue.

In my experience, just a slight elevation in empathy on both sides can make a huge difference in bridging gaps. The good news is that empathy is relatively easy to cultivate in face-to-face situations (not to mention that folks are less likely to be rude when a living, breathing human is in front of them).

The bad news is that it's almost impossible to cultivate empathy on a public forum, because it's so damn easy to dehumanize those who would have the audacity to disagree with us! And here we are.

I read somewhere years ago that communicating and negotiating with another culture is like walking through a minefield blindfolded. After living and working in the cross-cultural world for almost 4 decades, the metaphor still resonates. Powerful invisible cultural forces are at work, driving this discussion and behavior on both sides of the divide. Gaps abound, some I see, lots more hidden. When thrown into these kinds of situations, I instinctively go into listening mode and endeavor to be respectful. This approach has never let me down.