TMT groundbreaking - live

[snorkle]

White Fragility

A new sub culture? FWOP (Fragile Whites of Punaweb)

[kalakoa]

FWOP (Fragile Whites of Punaweb)

Descendants of the Puna NIMBY tribe...

[PunaMauka2]

u-da-man-snorkle patronizingly postures: "A new sub culture? FWOP (Fragile Whites of Punaweb)"

as we all know pigmentation of skin is so obviously determined via Punaweb. you too can be image cool online and earn virtual dark skin tone points by faithfully referring to the lava flow as "She" or by using the phrase Keiki o ka 'a'ina to show you so aaaaaakamai.

[PunaMauka2]

...can't forget the old standard "host culture". that gets serious brownie points.

[Guest]

I do stand corrected Leilanidude. Yes I found where geothermal and mike k, had been giving some of Pahoa's smartest scholarships. A few for $1,000 most for $500, these help keep our smartest right here going to hilo community college though not Duke or Gonzaga. Anyway the peanut is a nut some who deserve it will work very hard for. yet these aspiring seniors in the area dream bigger than HCC sometimes, why the stipulations to where the scholarship is good?.
I still say no more geothermal expansion, also no more gigantic telescopes on Maunakea until the courts or environmental and health studies are complete. Now I will look into those summer jobs offered to area seniors at the pgv plant.

[ironyak]

Originally posted by dakine
What does astronomy really do for mankind? When we see some great discovery announced in the press what is being gained? Is the discovery of black holes or whatever elemental structures, star dust etc., really serve to help us, mankind, in any way? Does looking back in time, for it is backwards that the telescopes gaze, provide us with tools to apply as we go forward? Does it make us better, kinder, healthier? Does it put food on the table, or make better medicine? Who gains what from all the staring at the stars?

I think these questions are interesting and are increasingly common. In revewing this thread, and others like it, they remain largely unanswered. It would be especially informative if an expert like TomK was willing to help explain the scientific value of the TMT project from an astronomer's view.

Of course, it's not like stopping the TMT will create a 1.4 billion dollar fund to feed the hungry, house the poor, and cure the sick. The international funding doesn't work like that and casting the options as such feels more rhetorical than truthful IMHO.

I remain interested if anyone opposed to the TMT project can answer the difficult question if there are any conditions that would make building the TMT on Mauna Kea acceptable. For some, the answer is likely no (sacred is sacred) but I would be interested in what the middle ground might look like, if there is any to be found.

I have no easy answers, but tend to favor the promotion of science, if only because science has provided powerful tools and methods for tackling the challenges of the world around us. These challenges have a habit of coming out of the blue and changing everything, just when it seemed things were all figured out.

[kalakoa]

any conditions that would make building the TMT on Mauna Kea acceptable

Yes. Build an imaginary TMT. Science can find another place more deserving of the $billions, and we can keep wondering where the kids will find their STEM education and what kind of jobs are available in our depressed two-horse economy.

[randomq]

"Why is Astronomy Important?" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.0508

There are also articles out there on the almost $60 million direct / $30 million indirect that astronomy brings to the Big Island economy. And the $1 million in "THINK" funds, which are apparently given to and allocated by local organizations.

Of all the benefits inspired or discovered by astronomy, I'm looking forward to fusion, which will mean the end to hunger, water shortages, pollution, and global warming. A lot of great things become possible with unlimited free clean energy...

Soon... http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/product...usion.html

[snorkle]

any conditions that would make building the TMT on Mauna Kea acceptable

It may be too late, but Partnering with the indigenous people would have been a good start. They are historically pretty akamai in the Astronomical arts. There are many contributions that Hawaiians could have made. Remember; It's not just about the telescope. It's a response to decades of cultural marginalization of the host culture.

Twenty years ago would have been the best time to include the Hawaiians in plans for their sacred mountain; Tomorrow would be the next best time.

'Ku'E'

[maud gonne]

[i]Snorkle said:
[i]Mauna Kea Conservation District Lands are watershed, historic, environmentally and culturally sensitive lands and therefore have [i]special protective status under Hawai‘i law. In fact, any activity that will have adverse impacts on the natural, historic and cultural resources of Mauna Kea are NOT permitted by law and BLNR is tasked with enforcing these laws. The University has already admitted that 45 years of astronomy development has resulted in "adverse, significant, and substantial impacts" to the natural and cultural resources of Mauna Kea.
AaronS said:
The Thirty Meter Telescope will truck all waste generated from this telescope off the mountain, so there won't be any impact to the aquifer underneath Mauna Kea.

It's nice that TMT claims it will responsibly get rid of its toxic waste.But as Snorkle's post points out, this adverse impact has been ongoing. This protest is just as much about dangers to the environment and aquifer, affecting all on the island, as it is about native Hawaiian issues