TMT groundbreaking - live

[PunaMauka2]

ah-so! there is a perfect example.

suppose we could switch out some Indiana Jones & the Lost Ark characters and have ourselves a local production. the TMT astronomers will take the part of the scoundrel Nazis, that's easy. ...who's going to be our swashbuckling protester protagonist?

[ironyak]

Originally posted by ironyak
http://www.bronsonkaahui.com/2015/04/08/tmt/

Originally posted by dakine
Here's a direct rebuttal to the article linked above..
http://hawaiiindependent.net/story/conti...-kuupaa-no


Thanks for the article - was a very well written response. I will not pretend to know if one view is more "right or wrong" (new age California spiritualism, huh? Comparing to the Arab Spring, really?) but I do appreciate the conversation sparked about the value of science within traditional beliefs.

[PunaMauka2]

Snorkle Jones balefully howls: "You are trying to smash their temple"!!!

bingo. perfectly timed, i do believe we have found our swashjestering hero to fill the role.

[rainyjim]

Okay let me give it a try...

It's called a social compact

Ever heard of that?

Basically it means that we follow the rules of society even if we don't agree with all of them or all the time.

And again, the majority have already decided that A. Telescopes on Mauna Kea are OK and B. TMT is good to go.

After the fact a small but vocal minority have attempted to block the will of the majority through protests, this is violating the social compact.

Okay, so good for them that's their right to have their opinion and that's what America is about in terms of sacrificing efficiency for giving people a right to voice their opinions.

However, using religion or cultural references is innapropriate as an excuse to violate the social contract for two reasons (probably more these are just off the cuff)

1. Separation of church and state, here in America we don't use religious beliefs as a reason for doing something or preventing others from doing something

2. The irony of the apparent hypocrity in claiming the right to protest simultaneously to stating the importance of a past culture that would have massacred any protestors to authority.

I am not trying to attack anyone here, I see where you are coming from with your views, now try and take a deep breath and see where the other side is coming from.

Aloha mai kakou

[PunaMauka2]

sorry Jim, you said "America" here (twice no-less!). we will now have to forevermore brand you a Teapublican doublespeaker.

[snorkle]

rainyjim suggest;
"1. Separation of church and state, here in America we don't use religious beliefs as a reason for doing something or preventing others from doing something"

Please read your statement and try not to spit on your keyboard.


Here in Merica, we don't keep people from worshiping the God of their choice, or bulldoze their sacred temples. (Well, except maybe the non Christian ones)

[TomK]

Snorkle,

"Helllloooooo people! Where do you get the idea that the protectors are forcing their religion on you? Are they trying to get you to go to the summit and worship a Hawaiian deity? I don't think so.

What, on the other hand, if they told you that you couldn't worship YOUR God in YOUR Sacred place? Because that's exactly what you are telling them. You are trying to smash their temple, while accusing them of persecuting you."

Incredible spin. What temple is being smashed by the TMT, and when was the last time any Hawaiian practitioners went to Mauna Kea to worship on the site the TMT is being built? On the other hand, there are people saying it's a sacred site, clearly a religious term, and using that argument to try and prevent a process that has involved the community in public discussions over the last seven years?

It's a dishonest argument to claim the TMT is preventing anyone worshiping their own religious beliefs on Mauna Kea. I have been up there on the very few occasions a group of Hawaiians go up to summit area, and they do so on the summit ridge or the summit itself. Neither are anywhere near the TMT site.

Please, if you want to remain credible, at least drop the straw man arguments and instead argue the facts.

[TomK]

Prompted by Snorkle's previous post, just did a quick search of what various people are saying on local media who do not support the TMT. The dishonesty and misinformation is astonishing.

"The construction of such a massive project would change our island forever, disrupting the water supply, producing tons of waste, and destroying the habitat of unique, endemic plants and animals. Not to mention, they will be drilling a dormant volcano."

"I think it’s ironic that scientists want to learn more about the universe at the expense of native cultures that have always understood more about the universe than these scientists will ever learn by looking through a telescope."

http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/commenta...april-10-0

"Insiders involved in TMT admit privately that technologies involved will be out-dated before construction is completed. And perhaps more importantly, our telescope project is more of a “showroom for elite international investors & thrill seeking tourists” in an exotic setting."

"Maybe military concerns are one of the forces driving more observatories. If they’re doing their job right,
the military always wants to be the firstest with the mostest. Some think they would love to find a way to use black holes as a weapon."

"Profits and profiteers both use science or religion as their reasoning.I think the Israeli/Palestine correlation was off the wall, white phosphorous isn’t being used by either side, people aren’t dying in a religious border war.
Just Say No, Kapu"

"Granted, I no longer reside on the Big Island, but I would like to show my children one day where their ancestors came from, and give them the opportunity to connect with nature, with the ‘aina, with the mana of their kupuna. The TMT might not even be functional when that happens, and will likely be sitting up top there.

And what’s up with the nine telescopes that are not being used?"

http://www.bigislandchronicle.com/2015/0...mauna-kea/

A gold star to anyone who can show one bit of truth to any of those comments.

[Lodestone]

TomK said: " I have been up there on the very few occasions a group of Hawaiians go up to summit area, and they do so on the summit ridge or the summit itself. Neither are anywhere near the TMT site."

I think TomK may have pinpointed the disconnect between the two sides. One side sees the TMT site as "ON the summit" and the other sees it as "NEAR the summit". Huge difference between being IN the Vatican and just being in Rome. How far down does "the summit" extend?

[Southernmost]

All Hawaii Stand Together - project Kuleana

http://youtu.be/LV5qNZox4T8

Born&Raised Hawai'i Island