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So disheartened in reading this continuing thread. The combination of personal belief and opinion, has led this into the depths of division once again.
Discounting our heritage and culture, is most concerning. There are some here who attempt to understand and find balance. There are some who are so obtuse in the negating of our culture, that no English words can provide the disdain felt.
However, after going to Mauna Kea, na'au is centered (I would suggest some of you "bigots" on both sides of this issue, do the same). Is yours? No matter if pro or con TMT, the mana (y'all know what that is right?) on Mauna Kea is powerful. Go see for yourself. In standing with both pro and anti TMT people, when you are "face to face", it enables the human mind to LISTEN to the other side of an argument more openly.
This is not about TMT. This is about a platform for the Hawaiian people to speak loudly about the wrong that has been done over one hundred (100) years ago.
With regard to TMT, they had better provide what is promised. Personally, there are doubts, given what I have seen with my own eyes. When ka po'e haole (or anyone) do not keep their word, it goes to credibility, honor, and integrity. TMT representatives failed in that regard to date.
Dakine nails it in the last dissertation. Southernmost has also attempted to explain our (kanaka maoli) position, however, with due respect, obviously tends to get emotional. Yes, we are ALL very, very emotional, on both sides of this particular issue.
Indeed, true colors have been shown here (right, oink?) Staying out of this discussion until now was for a purpose. It is my hope that we find middle ground without further divide. Yet, this spewing of racial crap, and insulting comments about our culture has really contributed to the divide. SO disappointed in this discussion which has gone to the depths of total disrespect and disregard for each other. Auwe.
There is a lot going on in the back rooms of the "decision makers" that we are not (well, most of you) privy to. As we move forward, let this thread be a part of healing our differences. The disgusting display of name calling, and outright disrespect of our Hawaiian culture pains me. So disappointing and hurtful (Ono, your statements are beyond comprehension to me. Auwe, for you).
The TMT will be built after years of discussion. It is my hope TMT will fulfill the obligation (unlike many, many other telescopes, geothermal companies, HECO, etc. who do NOT) promised. When promises are made, by GOD and all that is holy to each freaking person on this earth no matter if you're Hawaiian, Irish, English, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Iraqi, etc., be true to your word. Period. That is your "honor" at stake.
There is a video of this chant being done at the Iolani Palace the other day, which will (if you have any sense of being a human being) give you a feeling of "mana" and may cause you to pause before discounting our culture.
In closing, (as this will be my last post on this thread, if not Punaweb as a whole) I leave you all with the hope of finding balance without chastising each other. For us, kanaka maoli, the host culture, the means to exist with true aloha for one another , is paramount. Given the hand we Hawaiians have been dealt, we should all work towards resolution.
*If you can watch this at Iolani Palace, it is powerful. If not see the link below this one:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152903919598406&fref=nf
http://apps.ksbe.edu/kscholars/oli/ehomai
E ho mai
by Edith Kanaka’ole
(done 3 times)
E ho mai i ka ‘ike mai luna mai e
O na mea huna no’eau o na mele e
E ho mai, e ho mai, e ho mai e
Grant us knowledge from above
The things of knowledge hidden in the chants
Grant us these things
Yes, a telescope can help "grant us knowledge from above". As do our Kupuna.
Mahalo and please excuse the long post. E kala mai.
FWIW/SMDH/JMO.
Mahalo Opihikao, was missing you on this thread. Your time away was good, time spent with family and friends on Maunakea is priceless. A lot of truth in those written words of yours about the broken or unkept promises by many of late?.
P.S. you should not let this forum of mostly good hard working visitors get you down or change the way you feel about your Aina. Things are changing way to fast, hawaiian history, culture, and its future are not being respected enough jmo. A few things i was fortunate to have learned growing up here? Was how to fish from shore, how to grow your own gardens, and how to travel by using the stars. These things are important to me today and worth protecting for my kids tomorrow.
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Opihikao,
It is always good to read your opinions. I'm only quoting a couple of your paragraphs since it is only those I want to comment on, or ask a question.
"With regard to TMT, they had better provide what is promised. Personally, there are doubts, given what I have seen with my own eyes. When ka po'e haole (or anyone) do not keep their word, it goes to credibility, honor, and integrity. TMT representatives failed in that regard to date."
What doubts do you have and what makes you have those doubts? I'm not sure about your claim about TMT representatives failing in that regard as there were many community meetings over the last few years when those representatives reached out to the local community. It would be helpful if you could be a little more specific. I'm not a TMT employee, but if there is something specific you have in mind, we can all learn from that.
"The TMT will be built after years of discussion. It is my hope TMT will fulfill the obligation (unlike many, many other telescopes, geothermal companies, HECO, etc. who do NOT) promised. When promises are made, by GOD and all that is holy to each freaking person on this earth no matter if you're Hawaiian, Irish, English, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Iraqi, etc., be true to your word. Period. That is your "honor" at stake."
This is something where I really do have an issue. The TMT has yet to be given a chance to fulfill its promises although it certainly has already contributed to local education. If it doesn't carry out its obligations then I'll stand with the protesters (no, I will not call them "protectors"), but how can an organisation carry out its obligations if it isn't allowed to go ahead?
With respect,
Tom
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"Personally, there are doubts, given what I have seen with my own eyes."
What did you see?
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Gypsy69,
"[...] A few things i was fortunate to have learned growing up here? Was how to fish from shore, how to grow your own gardens, and how to travel by using the stars. These things are important to me today and worth protecting for my kids tomorrow."
How exactly is the TMT going to affect shore fishing and growing your own garden? The last bit is very troubling. You know how to travel by using the stars, but oppose the TMT. I don't understand. Do you want the knowledge we have gained about our universe to just stop, perhaps revert to only being able to navigate, or something else? Please explain. You do realise that the knowledge of how to navigate by stars was a scientific process and then had to be learned by the next generations, right? So now we should just stop? I don't get your point.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
Opihikao,
It is always good to read your opinions. I'm only quoting a couple of your paragraphs since it is only those I want to comment on, or ask a question.
"With regard to TMT, they had better provide what is promised. Personally, there are doubts, given what I have seen with my own eyes. When ka po'e haole (or anyone) do not keep their word, it goes to credibility, honor, and integrity. TMT representatives failed in that regard to date."
What doubts do you have and what makes you have those doubts? I'm not sure about your claim about TMT representatives failing in that regard as there were many community meetings over the last few years when those representatives reached out to the local community. It would be helpful if you could be a little more specific. I'm not a TMT employee, but if there is something specific you have in mind, we can all learn from that.
"The TMT will be built after years of discussion. It is my hope TMT will fulfill the obligation (unlike many, many other telescopes, geothermal companies, HECO, etc. who do NOT) promised. When promises are made, by GOD and all that is holy to each freaking person on this earth no matter if you're Hawaiian, Irish, English, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Iraqi, etc., be true to your word. Period. That is your "honor" at stake."
This is something where I really do have an issue. The TMT has yet to be given a chance to fulfill its promises although it certainly has already contributed to local education. If it doesn't carry out its obligations then I'll stand with the protesters (no, I will not call them "protectors"), but how can an organisation carry out its obligations if it isn't allowed to go ahead?
With respect,
Tom
Aloha (sincerely) Mr. Tom. First, I am very please you are healed from your bout with pneumonia. I was worried. (Sorry to others, OT)
I must respond, (only to you, as I meant it; no more with this thread. Have you read the total disrespect for each other here? Of course you have. OMG, beyond words, Sir.)
To address your questions, I will do so in the order presented (and may go off topic for a moment because of being born wahine [  ]):
1) The day I went to Mauna Kea, which was also during the Governor's hiatus of this project being Merrie Monarch week, one of the TMT officials acted like a "tourist" to get past the protestors/protectors. He admitted he was doing work for the past "few days" although the media and public were advised of the moratorium until April 20, 2015. I watched it happen. There are videos of the discussion between the TMT official and the "protectors" flooding the internet (they tape EVERYTHING). In essence, the Governor's/State ruling meant nothing to this man.
2) We were behind the tow truck that was going to the top of Mauna Kea to get the Governor because his van broke. Ho'ailona. The discussion with Mr. Ige and the protectors/protestors was quite interesting. He (Gov. Ige) was taken aback for a moment. He had no conception of the "mana". (As an aside, poor thing didn't even know Merrie Monarch music was "live"! (lol...as reported by K-Five TV)
3) The "confrontation" that other telescope employees (including yourself, which I apologize for on behalf of my people) is provoked by the "misinformation" disseminated by TMT themselves. The deceit is what provokes mistrust.
4) As to the $1 million dollar a year, and what they provide for the community, it breaks down to $4.57 (approx.) per child here in Hawai'i, if spent wisely. That might buy them lunch in 2016.
5) With regard to OHA (Office of Hawaiian Affairs), DLNR/BLNR (State of Hawaii dept. who grant the lease(s)), not one of these entities considered the ramifications of making decisions without having these "protestors/protectors" (ie. heathens, restless natives, etc.) a seat at the table at the crucial negotiation period. Another auwe.
6) There have been several lawsuits filed (much like geothermal and PPA, etc. over the years) over seven (7) years ago. In fact, there is still appeals court decisions to be made. The ruling in Maui that the Hawaiian Kingdom does still exists has been a catalyst to this movement. The statements that "only now they (protestors/protectors) come forward" is inaccurate. There are outstanding rulings to be made in the USA court of appeals.
Mr. Tom, you are one that I hold in high regard, thus, please do not take my statements as any disrespect to your scientific purpose. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way, shape, or form. I believe in science, (got an "A" always, and so do my mo'opuna) however, honor and integrity is what kupuna taught me. As a kanaka maoli, I am beholden to their charge.
gypsy, mahalo. Given our differences in opinion on occasion, you get it. Some will never. Kiss your keiki for us, and know that what is right will drop out the bottom, as it were. Aloha to your ohana.
May we find that middle ground, Sir. Mahalo for all you do for our scientific community, and moreso, for your ever present candor, Mr. Tom.
JMO.
ETA: typo. Good night to all.
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Opihikao,
Thank you. I promise I will bring up points 1 through 3 with the other observatories including the TMT. I have no patience when it comes to deception and dishonesty no matter who does it. I may need to ask for more details at some point though.
The other points you raise are things that are less clear to me and involve legal agreements I'm not part of. Happy to discuss them but your first three points are more important to me right now.
At some point I'd either like to get an email address for you or meet you personally, but this can wait. I need to investigate the first three claims you made.
Thank you again,
Tom
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This is not about TMT. This is about a platform for the Hawaiian people to speak loudly about the wrong that has been done over one hundred (100) years ago.
First off, I want to say I have nothing but respect for Opihikao.
Second, I'd like to point out that dwelling on the past is inherently unhealthy and there comes a time when people just need to move on.
I'm not telling anyone now is that time - perhaps it is now, perhaps it is well past time, perhaps it is far off in the future.
That said, I want to point out the obvious in that now being a part of the U.S. Hawaiians actually have the ability to protest and voice their opinions without being slaughtered by their rulers for dissenting.
Next I'd like to point out that if this isn't about the TMT then why are the protesters making it about the TMT. Sure as hell seems like it's about the TMT to me. This kind of non sequitur is the reason why so many of us 'Haoles' often time have no patience to listen to protesters. I agree it is unfortunate that so many have resulted to mud slinging of various types.
I think it is about the TMT and I think it's about an entitlement based culture - primarily youth raised in such a culture who feel they have the right to demand more and more of anyone who comes along. I liken it to the Black Knight in Monty Python - "None Shall Pass!"
"Unless of course you line my pockets - then we'll quiet down till the next opportunity to fleece a ripe target arrives - with a renewed sense of vigor and entitlement due to our previous success!"
Anyways, this is all so moot...the TMT will be built its just matter of time. Being a nuisance is just that and nothing more.
I agree with Opihikao that the mudslinging needs to stop. Have some respect for your neighbors even if you don't agree with them and we are all neighbors here. Please try and check yourself and take some deep breaths before typing and maybe even give your post a once or twice over before hitting that submit button. A good rule of thumb would be - would you, could you say that in front of your kids, spouse, parents, grandparents. We all have feelings and we all have the right to an opinion if you can't be civil then realize you aren't wanted in this discussion. Thanks for everyone who has maintained a modicum of civility.
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opihikao
Sincerest thanks for sharing your insights! (finally  Your words carry a lot of weight and are respected for good reason. Given the level of discourse here lately, I can understand why you would choose not to participate. Indeed, it feels as if many voices have stayed silent on this topic, for which this conversation, and our understanding, is much the poorer.
Your unique perspective and presence will be sorely missed while you are away. Clearly you have better and more important things to do, but hopefully any absence here is temporary and we can look forward to hearing your thoughtful voice again.
Warm regards and best wishes!
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quote:
Originally posted by dakine
it is 2015 after all. a degree of lifestyle differences amongst various families and individuals, yes, but let us not get romantically carried away in perceiving the mystery of the exotic "other" living in the here and now..
PW Concept of the Day.
Lack of Empathy: The Most Telling Narcissistic Trait
"Narcissists do not consider the pain they inflict on others; nor do they give any credence to others' perceptions," says Dr. Les Carter in the book Enough of You, Let's Talk About Me (p. 9). "They simply do not care about thoughts and feelings that conflict with their own." Do not expect them to listen, validate, understand, or support you.
more at: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sto...stic-trait
I have given serious and sober consideration to what you have said, and apologize if I was rude in over-enthusiastic attempts to defend western culture (and its love of science including the exploration of space via telescope, satellite, manned and unmanned missions and probes) against the wrench-throwers who wish to derail it at every turn.
After all, the culture that gave us so many medical, technological and scientific advances to better people's lives (including the very concept of human liberty) is no more important than a culture that worships (or holds {"Sacred") a particular piece of non-descript rock on the top of an otherwise-useless mountain).
Put the TMT in a place where the people deserve the honor of hosting it. Hawaii, isn't that spot - and never will be.
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
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