TMT groundbreaking - live

[ironyak]

Thanks for clarifying the revenue/rent issue Tom. For the TMT, the $1 million per year education THINK fund would be factored in as an operating cost then?

[TomK]

Iron - I don't know the exact source of the THINK fund, it's likely in one of the financial statements I linked above, but yes, I would imagine it would be part of the operational costs. That's certainly the case for the outreach programmes of the other observatories.

[Mtviewdude]

quote:

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Originally posted by snorkle

rainyjim asks;
" Why does anyone feel entitled to a handout from the telescope in the first place?"


It's the law.

At the time of annexation, the former Crown lands were given ("ceded") to the US Federal Government. When Hawai#699;i became a U.S. state, the lands were transferred to the state. The federal act authorizing the transfer required that the lands be held in trust and that revenue from the land be used for five purposes: (These excerpts actually came from the Statehood Act 1959)

1. Support of public education
2. Betterment of the conditions of native Hawaiians as defined in the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1920 (The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act 1920 did not exist in 1893)
3. Development of farm and home ownership
4. Public improvements
5. Provision of lands for public use

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Four of the five on the list sound like it should benefit all citizens of the state not just native hawaiians.

[PunaMauka2]

oh come on now ironyak, dispensing with the psuedo-jesting theatrics for a moment...

while admittedly my response was far from exemplary of the utmost in perseveringly polite, ever-patient and stoically diplomatic of responses, i'd say not quite falling within ad hominem territory (though granted, could have been within proximity of the gates... "...becoming amusing" likely implying gleeful haughty snickers of condescending disdain, when in fact it was more accurately semi-haughty snickers of dismissive disdain devoid of true glee with a touch of disappointment).

..."argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments."

granted mine was ...errr ...a colorfully expressed... summary description of the content of your argument.

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"...tends to raise both the mood and standards of the conversations ... takes part in (as ...done here)"

uhhhh, not without some hesitation i feel i should say i will regretfully have to disagree. and that's not to be taken as a personal attack or mean spirited. while likely not always so readily apparent, and i am quite confident despite good intentions and a sincere tone, much of what consistently leaps out between the lines i find is not so gracefully enlightened and especially thought provoking in an elevating way. that's as much as i care to candidly say specifically on that. i will say there are ample indications to believe there are any number of other fine qualities, as is usually the case among individuals.

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"How do you not see the Mauna Kea issue as an example of the tradition of principled protest?"

tradition of principled protest... just making clear what tradition we are talking about, not to be confused with historical ethnic cultural tradition which is on the tip of many a tongue these days.

i'd imagine the tradition of principled protest would encompass a very large tent indeed. i haven't seen this as disqualified from being called a principled protest. granted the principles touted so far don't sound well defined or very coherent at all but very ambiguous and, in my opinion, reflexively misplaced to a large degree with questionable tactics and some flagrant misinformation.

are all principled protests created equal? so highly subjective a question but i'd have to say not. ...Civil Rights protests...personally very high on my list. for the most part motivation relatively clear and transparent, universal equality the goal, ending laws which blatantly discriminate based on innate features. of course someone who believes in discrimination, segregation or exceptionalism might disagree. ...the Sea Shepard contingent, they get kind of fanatical with the vilification if you ask me. ...Westboro Baptist protests, bottom of the barrel, for obvious reasons. point being there can be a huge range among, and usually to some lesser extent, within.

there is also the possibility of said "principles" being truly represented or not. more menacingly, manipulation, exploitation, corruption and deception need to be guarded against. the possible contribution of hysteria, fashionability, and trend also need to be considered. social phenomena can happen for all kinds of tangled and convoluted reasons. we should each sort them out the best we can, sometimes easier done than others (depending on the complexity, or not) of that being observed and our own particular vantage point. ...that's my take.

[TomK]

"uhhhh, not without some hesitation i feel i should say i will regretfully have to disagree. and that's not to be taken as a personal attack or mean spirited. while likely not always so readily apparent, and i am quite confident despite good intentions and a sincere tone, much of what consistently leaps out between the lines i find is not so gracefully enlightened and especially thought provoking in an elevating way. that's as much as i care to candidly say specifically on that. i will say there are ample indications to believe there are any number of other fine qualities, as is usually the case among individuals."

Stay off drugs, kids, and make sure you get as good an education as you possibly can. You will regret it later on in life if you don't.

[ironyak]

PM2 - Well, if it wasn't gleeful, and just plain disdain that accompanied the haughty dismissive laughter and colorful summary of my character, then I withdraw my objection of course. Clearly you've done what you can to assume the best of others.

There is a depth of cynicism to your views on protests that I just don't share. The expectation for enlightened, authentic, unemotional, and unfettered beliefs (as defined by you) as necessary to reach some level of validity appears to single out only those views you already agree with to be allowable.

"I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire / Hall (and yes this includes less savory views like those of Sea Shepards, Westboro, or even yours PM2 Free speech is designed to protect unpopular speech, as popular speech needs no protection.

Taking a stand on principles is tough and prompts some difficult questions and discussions. But honestly engaging in those conversations allows us to learn more about our own views and others, and that is a good thing IMHO.

Aunty Pua Case: Kapu Aloha on Mauna a Wakea
https://youtu.be/TR-TmM5oXs0

ETF: typo

[ironyak]

Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
But what about OHA? Are they the agency in charge of oversight for education and the land resources under their management? It so, would their stewardship be considered acceptable by the average Hawaiian citizen?

I was wondering much the same. Having changed board members over the years, OHA originally supported the TMT, later withdrew their participation in the contested case hearings, but are now reconsidering their stance.

Does OHA adequately represent the Hawaiian viewpoint and interests? If not, how could that be changed or improved?

[Chunkster]

The bigger issue for OHA and DHHL is the outrageously poor job they do getting Hawaiians on the land already set aside for them. People die of old age on the waiting list, and contracts for utility and infrastructure construction are given to cronies at inflated prices. Their position on the TMT is insignificant until they do better on their basic task. IMHO, they use such issues as a smoke screen for their incompetence.

[kalakoa]

poor job they do getting Hawaiians on the land already set aside for them

OHA is just making sure that the Hawaiians comply with all Federal, State and County laws before taking up residence. Pre-contact, Native Hawaiians didn't have land-use regulations or zoning codes, and look what happened to them.

Compliance is always more important than having a roof over your head.

[PunaMauka2]

Tomk, actually i see you fly off the handle with that drug taking accusation thing about others fairly frequently when your feathers get ruffled for whatever reason.


ironyak, hah? go and experience. though if caught up by the exotic and esoteric appeal it may not be so easy to access and understand behind the front day to day mundane reality without being more than an inquisitive guest. then again, i imagine for others a more sober reality may very well become readily apparent after little time at all.