Court remands TMT sublease

[dw12345]

More money and jobs going to India. Just like technology jobs on the mainland all going to India.

[PaulW]

"even though our resident wannabe astronomer says otherwise"

I think you'll find he's an actual astronomer, whereas you are the wannabe.

[PaulW]

Ha ha, caught it before you changed it!

Good to see that you realized what a ridiculous statement that was.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

dakine,
Have you been to India?
On what basis do you think a remote mountain there with no infrastructure is a better location for a highly technological telescope than Hawaii?

"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives." -Annie Dillard

[TomK]

"our resident telescope administrator"

What on earth is a telescope administrator? Getting personal again, dakine?

[opihikao]

quote:

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Originally posted by dakine

Maybe there's still time to get (at least some of) the TMT issues onto the ballot -- although in practice, I'm sure someone would find a way to nitpick the procedural issues right back into court.

What's to get on the ballot? DLNR broke the rules. That's pretty clear to me. And a large group of people do not want the TMT built on Mauna Kea (MK) so they got caught. But hey, DLNR will hold their hearing and the issue will be aired in depth again and we’ll see. Are you really suggesting we govern land use via the popular vote?

I think the fact that the TMT organization is considering a broader range of sites is great though I suspect it's more to put pressure on DLNR than a sincere effort to find an alternative. Conversely I suspect that India is a good site, even though our resident telescope administrator says otherwise I suspect it’s a good location with a lot of attributes. If the TMT were to be built there it could lead to an entirely new astronomy center on the planet. What would be wrong with that? Sure there is less infrastructure there than on MK, but that’s just a matter of installing it. After all there was a time not too long ago when there wasn’t any power on MK and all the scopes were ran on generators, when there wasn’t any pavement, even a real road to the summit isn’t that old. So why begrudge India having a center also? Because haoles don’t want to live in India? Yeah well, they’ll figure that out. Sure the grunts will have to be there but for the most part I‘m confident the actual researchers will be able to work remotely.

---

With respect, dakine, (BBM) the BLNR screwed up. Throw in the State and the UH, combined with the protectors/protestors who exercised rights under both American and Kingdom law (FWIW), we are now here. The Supreme Court has ruled. The Third Circuit Court has sent this back to BLNR.

Good Lord, we are in an election year, so this will be a "hot topic", unless the politicians have no gumption.

It is my firm belief (again) the TMT is not the core of the issue, yet, is being made a catalyst for several challenges this State/Federal Government/etc. (all of us) faces.

"We the people" should have input given the guidelines put forth by government. Conservation land has certain requirements and restrictions. Put it up for vote is a great idea; the results may be surprising. There should be a box for "support with conditions".

Failed past management of Mauna Kea (UH/DLNR admitted the same, and State Auditor Reports) adds to the chaos. Then, throw in politics and WTH does Puna (or other communities) get out of all this? (Rhetoric; I know the TMT is spending educational dollars, etc.)

Many, many things are forthcoming, none of which are set in stone.
What is right will hopefully be the end result.

Mahalo ke Akua, e na Aumakua, e na Kupuna.

JMO.

ETA: Typo, sorry, need my glasses.[xx(]

[TomK]

dakine wrote:

"All this hoopla about it having to happen now, and having to happen here, is silly methinks."

So you think having the TMT operate at the same time the JWST is operational is silly? Why do you think that? Scientific reasons please, not personal attacks. I'm also interested in the infrared and optical properties of the site you recommended for the TMT. Local and natural seeing, the amount of precipitable water that would affect IR observations, IR seeing, the number of clear nights per year etc.

Since you identified this site a long while ago, I'm sure you'll have this information at hand.

[kalakoa]

They will welcome TMT with milk and flower petals.

And permits, and an educated workforce...

[Justin]

One thing to bear in mind for everyone rejoicing at the thought the TMT might relocate to somewhere else - you realize there's a good shot TMT might sue the state/county, and that we stand to LOSE a lot of money? As Opihikao and others have noted above, the BLNR is the party that screwed up here (by ignoring procedure and bypassing a contested case hearing), not TMT, yet TMT is the party that stands to lose money. Even a halfway decent attorney could fashion a negligence claim against the BLNR and the county/state, seeking damages for the lost revenue and increased costs due to having to move locations. To the extent there is a judgment against any of those entities, that's money that can't be spent on roads, parks, police, fire department, etc.

I just wanted to make sure that's on people's radar, when considering how you feel about the overall issue.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Here's a fact about Mt Saraswati, and why it has only a single, small rundown observatory on it's peak. From Wikipedia:

Location
The Indian Astronomical Observatory stands on Mt. Saraswati, Digpa-ratsa Ri, Hanle in south-eastern Ladakh in the eastern Jammu and Kashmir state of India.[1] Accessing the observatory, located near the Chinese border, requires a ten-hour drive from Leh*, the district capital of Ladakh.[2]

If you have never driven on mountain roads in India, I can assure you it would not only be a long drive, but one that is insanely dangerous that will involve, but in no way be limited to averting local people and small children walking in the road, monks, backpackers, big trucks, small carts, sheep, chickens, no guard rails, and the driver of your vehicle following the Prime Directive of highway travel in India, the largest vehicle always has the right of way. No matter what. If you're a passenger, imagine your excitement the first time the car or truck you're riding in is the same size as one coming from the other direction:

Another Job Opening: Astronomer, Mt. Saraswati, India

Also, have any supporters of Mt Saraswati as a site for the TMT, looked into whether this remote mountain may be sacred to the local people of that mountainous region?


"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives." -Annie Dillard