TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo

[Tink]

Oh sure, let's just turn the protest into another "Burning Man". On court testimonies, they should only allow people that only live on this island.

Community begins with Aloha

[kalakoa]

let's just turn the protest into another "Burning Man"

Yes, exactly: we'll need increased tourism to pay for the loss of TMT, what better solution than fleecing the very protestors who are preventing TMT?

[MarkP]

There are a dozen telescopes already up there. Why is this the first time I am bearing about concerns with wastewater and the aquifer? Because this is all about making trouble, not about the aquifer which is in no more threat from the telescopes than it is from a similar number of any of the home cesspools on the mountain's lower flanks. You know, the ones many of the "protectors" cheerfully dump their waste into daily. The ones thousands of feet closer to the water table. The ones in areas that get 10 times as much rain to flush the contents into the aquifer. The ones that are not zero waste facilities.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Opponents of the Thirty Meter Telescope have raised $250,000 to pay for the travel costs for Native American and other protesters from the mainland to come to the islands, Hawaii News Now has learned.
The so-called "protectors fund" would pay for the travel and lodging of up to 150 people...

I did a quick Google Search for "protector's fund hawaii" and the only links I could find were to the Hawaii News Now story and twitter, repeating the HNN story. How would $250,000 in donations find it's way to an unlocatable "protectors fund?" Can anyone else find a source for the people collecting this money? Or does it come from an unnamed benefactor?

"One may pretend knowledge of philosophy more successfully than that of arithmetic." -Last Aphorisms (or how about, one may pretend knowledge with an opinion more successfully than with facts)

[alaskyn66]

There are quite a few go fund me. Pages related to MaunaKea. Perhaps they are combining them into one.

Between that. Private donations.. and selling their food stamps for cash... they could raise it fairly quickly.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Protectors wish to bring in non Native Hawaiians from the mainland to assist them in their efforts.

Isn't getting rid of outside influence in Native Hawaiian affairs one of the tenets of the Protectors protests on Mauna Kea?
Now they want to encourage, and import outside influence?
How has that tactic worked out (backfired?) in the past?

Kamehameha purchased weapons from American and European ships trading with Hawaii.
http://www.anb.org/articles/20/20-01236.html

The King (Lunalilo) also wanted to improve Hawaii's economic situation. The Kingdom was in an economic depression, with the whaling industry rapidly declining. Commerce groups asked the king to look at sugar to improve the economy and recommended that a treaty be drawn with the United States to allow Hawaiian sugar to enter the nation tax-free. To make such a treaty, many thought that the Kingdom would have to offer the Pearl Harbor area to the United States in exchange
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunalilo

"One may pretend knowledge of philosophy more successfully than that of arithmetic." -Last Aphorisms (or how about, one may pretend knowledge with an opinion more successfully than with facts)

[PaulW]

Come on anti-telescope people, don't let Gypsy do all the heavy lifting! Chime in and tell us why YOU are against building a telescope on a mountain and injecting hundreds of millions into the local economy.
Please try not to just make stuff up.

[ironyak]

Nearly 50 pages of comments on just this latest thread about the topic and somehow you haven't come to the realization that there is a core anti-development sentiment in the anti-TMT movement which doesn't want more jobs, more people, or millions of more dollars added to the economy?

The TMT is a particularly potent symbol to target given the science vs culture or conservation vs development debates, but it is just one of enumerable efforts over many decades to limit growth and attempt to preserve an unique environment and way of life. The Big Island, and Puna in particular, are the legacy of the positive and negative results of these efforts.

Values and goals are not inherently correct or universally shared so why expect that everyone wants what you do?

[Kukiniloa]

I support the TMT, but the EIS was negligent, and the Resource Management Plan still hasn't been completed. The major issue with the EIS was that it concluded adverse cultural impacts, then went on to say that these impacts were mitigated with the $1 million annual educational fund. This mitigation, I can understand, is insulting to some.

The second-tier telescopes on the mountain should have been decommissioned and demo'd years ago, but the astronomers wanted to get as much as they could, as much astronomy development. The astronomers were greedy, and if they had listened a little bit 20 years ago this situation wouldn't have happened. Their arrogance caused this situation.

I mean, why aren't the protectors protecting the 1/3 of Oahu occupied by the US military? Why aren't they speaking out to preserve Hawaiian habitat and forest? Why aren't they protesting Pohakuloa Training Area? Is Mauna Kea really that much more important than any other place on the Island?

I think that the arrogance of the astronomers is really to blame, but so are the mid-guided views of the Protectors. Astronomy is a soft target. The US military, not so much.

quote:

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Originally posted by gypsy69

Deleted nothing Punaticbychoice, only added happy holidays.

Aaron S, Has it ever occurred to you that many of these "folks" you speak of may have been ignored or never heard since the TMT permits were granted well before the contested case hearing in this process? Now some may have had to throw the kitchen sink to the forums rather than courts to be heard.
Here is me throwing my bathroom sink:

I found the 503 pg EIS report to be very misleading at times because it stated many times that the TMT would have a minimal to no adverse impact to the summit area's environment. That may be far from the truth because once such a billion dollar project like the TMT's is added to the summit area, drastic changes may come.
For starters, it's not just the TMT operations and up to 300 TMT employees traveling to the summit area that may cause excess dust, noise, and other pollutants to the environment. It's the million visiting tourists a year to the TMT site that may also cause environmental harm or impacts to the summit area that should be included or predicted in the EIS. The many other businesses that come or follow such expansions as the TMT's on Mauna Kea should also carry impacts worth noting in the EIS, Resort Tours for example. jmo

Hawaiian Cultural traditions and practices like prayers and respectful gatherings may be negatively impacted far more from the TMT project and operations than what the EIS leads you to believe. The once calm and peaceful Mauna Kea summit area that was Kapu for most will be open season for tour vans full of tourists taking pictures of everything including the Hawaiians possibly during their cultural traditional practices. The large increase in foot traffic and vehicle noise, dust, and view intrusions and the TMT operations may limit or alter the Hawaiian cultural practices some of us would like to see promoted and protected. jmo

Aaron S, Would you try answering a few of my questions regarding the TMT project?
For starters, Are you sure the U.S Military will not or could not be involved with the TMT project in anyway?
Would you also know about other countries military intentions involved with this TMT project? say China? or India?

For example, China or India may have other intentions over the next 70 years, or gain helpful data or intelligence from Hawaii's Tmt. The JWST, is set to be launched within the next year or two, It will only be able to operate and collect Data for about ten years. The TMT telescope may become increasingly important to the JWST Satilite project as it's time or tenure shortens. The sharing or storing of important Data the TMT carries may be helpful or sensitive to other countries like the U.S, China, India or Iran. The development or accuracy of weapons to be used from space for things like war or nuclear deterrence programs may come from the help of the TMT.
I am a bit concerned that giant eyes in the sky like the TMT's on Mauna Kea could become future targets like pearl harbor once did decades ago. The TMT is worth billions today and possibly Trillions fifty years from now. If a country like NK or Iran wanted to interrupt or intercept sensitive Data, Intelligence, or currency the TMT may look like an important or easier target from afar than others. jmo

Would it be possible that the TMT project once built, could run out of funding? Could the tmt facility then be sold or taken over to be used for other purposes much like the Super Ferry?
Could the TMT "If" built in the center of the Pacific ocean be asked for any data from a military like the U.S, China, or India for say future target striking on foreign satellites or UFO's in space or around the world?

"If" the TMT was built and the millions of visitors expected do arrive every year. Would Helicopter landing pads for the military, tourism, or emergencies be allowed at or near the summit?

If the TMT project is built on the summit of Mauna Kea would it be decommissioned in 2033 when the current lease expires, or with the dozen or so other telescopes?
Also, Would the TMT be using "any" electricity being produced by the PGV or Helco's power plant in Lower Puna? and How much?
I have a hard time believing so much would be invested by the TMT corporation or by the many Governments involved without knowing or having some confidence in its tenure atop Mauna Kea. jmo

P.S. PaulW, HOTPE, MarkP, please chime in and answer any of these questions or concerns of mine regarding the TMT. Maybe you could try the sandwich technique to be nicer this time around. Mahalo in advance.

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[TomK]

Kukiniloa,

Could you clarify this statement, please? Do you mean just a couple of them or all of them?

"The second-tier telescopes on the mountain should have been decommissioned and demo'd years ago,[...]"

Of the top ten most scientifically productive telescopes on the planet, six of them are on Mauna Kea.

http://aspbooks.org/publications/492/090.pdf