Posts: 10,227
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
Opihikao,
I have great respect for you and nothing has changed that, it actually pains me to say this, but I can't disagree with Kirt or Mark's recent posts. I watched nearly all of Holi's cross-examination plus her summary, and to put it kindly, it was rambling and barely relevant to the TMT. I could say more, but won't, I don't want to come across as offensive to you.
What I do admire is, as you said, she has been present for just about the whole hearing, I noticed Amano acknowledging her each morning. Sadly, I cannot say the same for other opponents of the TMT. I'll go with Kirt's comment and request, though, which is if there's something specific she said that's really relevant to the TMT, please let us know.
Posts: 664
Threads: 67
Joined: Mar 2016
I think Holi's written testimony says more about Maunakea than much else.
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/mk/files/2017/02...hibits.pdf
In about the middle there's one page:
* Protect this culturally important spot
* It's crown and government land and the current use doesn't give vested interest
* She gives everyone notice that these lands belong to the Kingdom of Hawai'i and presents lineage with claims to declare it so
Posts: 11,023
Threads: 750
Joined: Sep 2012
if there's something specific she said that's really relevant to the TMT
I didn't watch the entire 3 hour video, but did see several extended segments here and there. I think the exchange TomK and I had earlier in this thread, concerning the difficulty a person of belief encounters when they try to discuss and share their ideas with a person of logic certainly comes into play during Wilma Holi's testimony (and vice versa).
I thought she was sincere in her beliefs and I felt she tried to be true to those beliefs while I listened to her statement, whether I understood the points she was trying to convey or not.
I do remember at one point when she was asked about the impact of the TMT on Mauna Kea she responded to the questioner with her own series of questions including, and I paraphrase, would the Catholic Church have a telescope in the Vatican? The questioner agreed that most likely that would not be the case, auntie.
This exchange is a good example of how difficult it is for each side to understand the other. Wilma Holi and many of the other speakers at the hearing cannot imagine the coexistence of astronomy with religion on Mauna Kea or any site considered sacred, even to other religions. That belief appears to them self evident. In returning to the example of astronomy at the Vatican, the Catholic Church did in fact have an observatory in Vatican City. Another example is Tibet, where the Dalai Lama mounted a telescope on the roof of the Potala Palace, the highest and most sacred point of Tibetan Buddhism in Lhasa.
As opihikao said in her statement:
You may not understand, you may disagree, you may not grasp the entirety of her position.
That is what makes following the strands of belief and the strings of logic so difficult to meet and twine together, and equally difficult for every one of us to understand as we watch the events at the TMT hearing unfold.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
Posts: 2,654
Threads: 42
Joined: Sep 2006
I would imagine there have been telescopes in the Vatican since the earliest of telescopes. I don't think that with the Vatican's restricted space anything new could be built.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Posts: 4,905
Threads: 83
Joined: Feb 2009
"The Vatican Observatory is a scientific research institute of the Holy See subject to the Governorate of Vatican City State.
The Observatory is one of the oldest astronomical institutes in the world. Papal interest in astronomy can be traced to Pope Gregory XIII who had the Tower of the Winds built in the Vatican in 1578 and later called on Jesuit astronomers and mathematicians to study the scientific data and implications involved in the reform of the calendar which occurred in 1582."
http://www.vaticanstate.va/content/vatic...icana.html
Posts: 10,227
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
I thought the hearing was supposed to continue today (Monday 27th Feb) but I see no available videos on Na Leo TV. Am I wrong or are they just a little late updating the available videos? Na Leo TV is usually quite efficient making the videos available, especially the morning sessions.
Posts: 10,227
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
Oink - I believe there used to be an observatory at the Vatican itself up until the early 19th century, but it became too crowded. The Vatican does have a couple of other observatories, one in Arizona! This is from memory, so might not be completely accurate.
Posts: 664
Threads: 67
Joined: Mar 2016
she was asked about the impact of the TMT on Mauna Kea she responded to the questioner with her own series of questions including, and I paraphrase, would the Catholic Church have a telescope in the Vatican? The questioner agreed that most likely that would not be the case, auntie.
Oh the irony!
I assumed the observatory at the Vatican is common knowledge, I guess not. It's over 125 years old and held in high esteem by the church. It's still active and holds workshops on science all the time. http://www.vaticanobservatory.va/content...na/en.html
As light pollution eventually made it hard to study fainter objects they opened the VATT in 1993 http://www.vaticanobservatory.va/content.../vatt.html which TomK mentions: "The Vatican Observatory Research Group (VORG) operates the 1.8m Alice P. Lennon Telescope with its Thomas J. Bannan Astrophysics Facility, known together as the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope (VATT), at the Mount Graham International Observatory (MGIO) in southeastern Arizona where sky conditions are among the best in the world and certainly the Continental United States."
quote:
In its historical roots and traditions the Vatican Observatory is one of the oldest astronomical institutes in the world. For the first foreshadowing of the Observatory can be traced to the constitution by Pope Gregory XIII of a committee to study the scientific data and implications involved in the reform of the calendar which occurred in 1582. The committee included Father Christoph Clavius, a Jesuit mathematician from the Roman College, who expounded and explained the reform. From that time and with some degree of continuity the Papacy has manifested an interest in and support for astronomical research. In fact, three early observatories were founded by the Papacy: the Observatory of the Roman College (1774-1878) (illustrated), the Observatory of the Capitol (1827-1870), and the Specula Vaticana (1789-1821) in the Tower of the Winds within the Vatican. These early traditions of the Observatory reached their climax in the mid-nineteenth century with the researches at the Roman College of the famous Jesuit, Father Angelo Secchi, the first to classify stars according to their spectra. With these rich traditions as a basis and in order to counteract the longstanding accusations of a hostility of the Church towards science, Pope Leo XIII in 1891 formally re-founded the Specola Vaticana (Vatican Observatory) and located it on a hillside behind the dome of St. Peter's Basilica.
(emphasis added is mine)
Fewer people probably know the idea of the Big Bang came from a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaitre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
As Richard Ha has often said on his blog (I'm paraphrasing): We can either be leaders in science or be left behind.
Posts: 14,115
Threads: 424
Joined: Aug 2012
http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/news...d-march-10
A process to form a vision for the future of Mauna Kea is starting to take shape.
Right Hand, this is Left Hand. Have you guys met before?
Posts: 10,227
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
As to my question about the hearing on Monday 27th Feb, it seems I wasn't incorrect in believing the case continued that day, it seems Na Leo TV are being a little slow in uploading the videos. At the time of writing, they've made the afternoon session available for that day, but not the morning session.
|
