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ohiagrrl, you're going to find DNA evidence for a mix of probably 10,000 people from all over the world up there. Many of them will have DNA bits that are related to Polynesian/Hawaiian ancestors too and probably unknowingly as the Polynesians and other cultures were well traveled. There would be no way to determine the age of the DNA, the true origin, or why or who left it behind. A native Hawaiian could walk up there today and scatter blood everywhere and the only thing we would be able to tell is that person has Hawaiian ancestry and bled in multiple spots.
It won't be the holy grail you are searching for. To date there's no evidence that the TMT site is on anything that was a religious site from the past. You can argue that today it's become a religious site, but there's really no historical evidence that it was prior to the recent proclamations in the past decade.
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Hi Eric, I will wait until the specifics this latest testing becomes available for that determination and will keep you updated on what I find pro or con. The EIS put out by TMT themselves has a really good map of locations of hundreds of archaelogically relevant spots on the summit. You are specifically talking about the Northwest summit on which TMT wants to build, however, they still carved a half mile road from the summit to the NW Plateau before all the paper work was filed. Nees and McCoy found evidence of ancient activity within 100 feet of that road which incidently covers 2-3/4 acres itself. With no way to know what was there before the road was ground down.
The entire 525 Acre Astronomy Park falls within a Historic Preservation Zone (enacted in 1966 I think) due to the fact that there is a proven long history of spiritual rituals that took and still take place up there, contrary to your assetions.
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the Forbes article talks about a process specific to determining the age and genus left in specs of soil dating back some tens of thousands of years ago.
Yes, but not through DNA testing alone. When anthropologists study a cave, which as Carey has pointed out is protected from decomposition and erosion by weathering over time, they have layers of sediment which they use for dating purposes. Read the Forbes article, it's in there. If tools used by humans are found in a specific layer of sediment, that determines humans were present Immediately before the layer was deposited. The sediment or soil may then be tested for human DNA. If positive, it indicates humans occupied the cave at that time.
If it is already known a cave or an area was occupied by humans, the DNA testing provides no additional information, or dating of the DNA without sediment layers.
On the fifth day - the scientists who studied the rivers - were forbidden to speak - or to study the rivers. -Jane Hirshfield's poem on creation
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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quote:
Originally posted by ohiagrrl
Hi Eric, I will wait until the specifics this latest testing becomes available for that determination and will keep you updated on what I find pro or con. The EIS put out by TMT themselves has a really good map of locations of hundreds of archaelogically relevant spots on the summit. You are specifically talking about the Northwest summit on which TMT wants to build, however, they still carved a half mile road from the summit to the NW Plateau before all the paper work was filed. Nees and McCoy found evidence of ancient activity within 100 feet of that road which incidently covers 2-3/4 acres itself. With no way to know what was there before the road was ground down.
The entire 525 Acre Astronomy Park falls within a Historic Preservation Zone (enacted in 1966 I think) due to the fact that there is a proven long history of spiritual rituals that took and still take place up there, contrary to your assetions.
I'm glad that you'll wait for specifics. But that that area is polluted with DNA and it's logical to assume that with thousands of samples you'll never be able to recreate something historically accurate unless you start digging up graves to find specific DNA matches. And even then you'll have no idea what they were doing on the mountain at the time, maybe they were relieving themselves.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "ancient activity" but to quote the EIS:
The only ahu within 200 feet of the TMT Observatory, Access Way, and Batch Plant Staging Area is a shrine near the end of the 4-wheel drive road in Area E. This shrine is believed to have been constructed in the early 2000s; but its creator is unknown.
Other assumptions:
* The access road area wasn't surveyed
* no survey was done we can never know what horrible things have already been done.
* The access road area has a history of spiritual rituals
* The in the entire area there's a long proven history of spiritual rituals so Area E for the TMT must have them as well
* If they bulldozed a holy area for a road then they obviously don't care about anything
There's been about 23 surveys on the mountain starting in 1976. The survey you reference was done in 2005, before the road was graded in March of 2014. Pacific Consulting Services, Inc. employees gave testimony in the case and you can read it as well as look at the EIS. None of your assumptions can be proven true and are contradicted by what is in evidence.
If you want to say there's a modern case for the TMT area being sacred then I would agree to some extent there's been new spiritual interest, but there's no historic evidence of that in the past. I know I'm not going to convince you of anything though, so unless you have a specific questions, I think we should just agree to disagree.
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" it strikes me that the interior of dormant cinder cones in relevant locations would be the best chance of finding these "messy" fragments"
UMMM... REALLY?? you do not get the circular logic in this???
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"Since the mathematical theory that a closed Universe is in conflict with the proven physics of space time, going back in time still has no working theory, but the mistakes of the past must be examined to find solutions and be ammended."
WTF?
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Eric....100 feet, 200 feet, still close proximity....with little to no oversight from anyone but TMT supporters/employees and a documented history of moving evidence, pardon, my cynicism. According to a geological consultant I spoke with, nothing but cursory evidence would need to have been taken from the road site or the NW Plateau in order to fulfill EIS requirements, because without visual confirmation of bones or artifacts, he said that any geological survey would not be obliged to do more than a 10cm cube of soil testing in a random array, standard OP. The road in question was used for years before being expanded.
According to my ohana, everything above what you know as the Pohakuloa Training area, (long sacred stone) elevation is the spiritual realm and dying fields. It seems illogical that in an area littered with remains and shrines, that the NW plateau would somehow not have ANY evidence of activity at all. The plowed cinder cones of which I and others constantly lament were taken down by earlier observatories, not TMT, but you have to understand (or not) the history of the University/State/Observatory missteps play out on how your particular project is viewed, now and in the future because from the local perspective, it's one big conglomeration adding insult ontop of injury. The key to conflict resolution is understanding the other POV.
HOT, Thanks for your added precision, but in terms of effect, what does it really matter if the Forbes article expresses evidence of a process that uses strictly DNA evidence or that combined with some sort of carbon date testing? The results are in and published and it is exciting and potentially applicable that this technology now exists where they claim to be able to date DNA evidence back 55,000 years or more. If Hawaiian DNA were discovered to predate the earliest assumed date anywhere up on Mauna a Wakea, it would be relevant information.
Carey, if by circular thinking you mean educated guess, then yes. I don't claim to have answers, I claim to have found an article about technology that may provide answers.
TK, please mind your language and have a nice read.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswitha...o-science/
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Ohiagrrrl, you're making more assumptions that are not true:
* little to no oversight from anyone but TMT supporters/employees and a documented history of moving evidence
- How would you know things have been moved if they were never documented or done in secret? The fact is they haven't and you're just suspicious. The only thing that was discussed about being moved by an employee was a stone that someone stood upright and Wally pushed it back down. And then there's removal of new ahu's, etc. But people started building all kinds of things up there. Tourists stacking rocks, etc. If they didn't have permission to build things up there, then they were restored. Sure some things in the past were not handled/protected properly like the event that pushed Kealoha Pisciotta to fight the astronomy community and the cinder cone being dozed. There are now big improvements in place since those times.
* According to a geological consultant I spoke with, nothing but cursory evidence
- Who is this and did they present sworn testimony to this fact? I would be interested to know because PSCI presented their methods and techniques in detail along with the other 20+ surveys which included the areas and techniques as well. They disagree with your consultant.
* he said that any geological survey would not be obliged to do more than a 10cm cube of soil testing
- You contradict yourself here. Do you want them to excavate and test what the findings or not? When bulldozing they are looking for anything that might also be turned up, but you were against the excavation to start with.
* everything above what you know as the Pohakuloa Training area, (long sacred stone) elevation is the spiritual realm and dying fields. It seems illogical that in an area littered with remains and shrines
- This is not littered with remains. There are work areas, places where lures were made, adze, etc. There's no reason to assume it was all one giant holy land for the dead. In fact there's only one chant that even talks about Mauna Kea so I think your point is not well founded.
* but you have to understand (or not) the history
- Why do you assume I don't understand the history? I do in fact know it quite well. However TMT is not the past, it is a new deal, a new way forward and a new partnership. The new management plan is also much better and everyone agrees on these facts. You shouldn't base policy and future decisions on past mistakes which have been corrected. Should we stop progress because of old grudges?
What about all the other things in Hawaii that no one seems to care about that are much worse cultural and environmental violations?
It's obvious we are not going to agree on this subject, but I guess I'll just keep defending my points until we can both agree to disagree on this.
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The key to conflict resolution is understanding the other POV.
Yet for some reason the "protectors" see this as a one-way street, in which the "haoles" must kowtow to the sacred lands which exist under any new well-funded project.
Worthless lands, now subdivided into vast "private" "agricultural" subdivisions, are apparently not sacred; I see no "protectors" marching in front of HPP demanding that construction must cease, and Kenoi bulldozed 20+ acres for the Pahoa Park without any objection...
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Pahoa Pk is not considered sacred to Hawaiians or designated as a historic preservation zone, so what is the question? That haoles are under-represented?
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