TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo

[PaulW]

So, Gypsy (still here?), are you saying that every telescope denier is a paragon of virtue?
I know at least one that was making plans to scam the county by selling them his house and buying it back at a profit.

[Guest]

PaulW
The county was trying to buy folks out cheap (practically stealing) with the Geothermal relocation fund and then turn around and make a large profit when they auctioned the homes off. The homes should not be resold at auctions in the first place and the folks on the Geothermal relocation list for years should not be the counties victims once AGAIN.
The real criminals are the county officials and Hawaii county police dept which has shown time and time again that they can not be trusted.

https://hawaiicorruption.wordpress.com/

The public was cheated during this scandal as well, at least the Mayor apologized.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/articl...ln03a.html

[kalakoa]

The real criminals are the county officials and Hawaii county police dept

...for approving TMT in the first place?

[MarkD]

even 10 seconds of googling shows your statement to be just plain hogwash

Hogwash is a pretty strong statement; essentially means completely without merit. Just glanced at the website; it didn't really shift my opinion much. Still believe PR is the dominant component of the astronomy-wayfinding link.

What might we navigate with TMT?

IMO, and I concede to having minimal astronomy background, the field is almost exclusively investigative. Navigation, if one can call it that, would be observing with increasingly powerful telescopes distant regions not previously visible (or perceivable with the multitude of sensors you folks use.)

Navigation is a weak term for this. I would call it observation and investigation. And OK exploration.

Did the Polynesian observations of the nighttime skies put them in the position--over the centuries--of having to keep track of significant amounts of new phenomenon?

Just did a tiny bit of astronomy 101. Primary moving objects visible to naked eye are planets, moons, comets. Stars stay in place but "the stars do move slowly over the course of the night. The entire sky rotates about the point in the sky where you can find the North Star. " Happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.

Upshot: the bulk of what the wayfinders observed over the centuries in the sky remained largely the same. Hence their endeavors were not investigative and explorative but memorization and using that memory map in direction finding (navigation), IMO. Am I still wrong?

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.

The only fact of which we can be certain, is that Polynesians sailed to Hawaii.
The method by which that feat was accomplished can be speculated, tested, and inferred, but there's no written record, and most likely no unbroken linear oral history.

Has it been proven that skilled navigators could have sailed across thousands of miles from one tiny island to another? Yes.
Is the proof irrefutable? Not yet.

Many other creatures managed to get here too, by air or sea, by luck or navigation (internal or external), one way or the other. We don't know for certain, but it's a fascinating subject to discuss.

[PaulW]

Yes, it is hogwash that astronomy was just a tool for the Polynesians with no other significance for them.

Astronomy has given us so much, confirmation of the theory of relativity for one. More knowledge about how everything works is generally regarded as a good thing.

[TomK]

"Hence their endeavors were not investigative and explorative but memorization and using that memory map in direction finding (navigation), IMO. Am I still wrong?"

You're not wrong, but understanding where the stars would appear over the entire year was rather important to navigation, and hence exploration, especially of the ocean. The position of stars has also been and still is, a very important part of astronomy. It's called astrometry. Telescopes on Mauna Kea still do this including UKIRT.

[TomK]

Pam and I were in a local bar the other evening and the barman was a native Hawaiian with a big family in Hawaii. He was a great guy and we also got to meet some of his family. I won't mention the place or his name because of concerns he'd get backlash. He said he and nearly everyone he knows have feared to talk out loud about their support for the TMT and the opportunities it will provide.

Thought I'd mention this as I just saw this opinion piece:

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/36153...-hawaiians

[MarkP]

To me this falls under the heading of "can't get anything done". If by magic the Monarchy were reinstated tomorrow, how would they ever get anything done? How would they interface with the rest of the world who does try to get something done? How would they even accept bribes, much less negotiate difficult foreign policy, if this is their decision making process? Scratch that last bit. Haiti and other third world nations operate on that level.

[kalakoa]

"can't get anything done"

Hawaii is a great place for vacation or retirement only.