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Getting Drilled in Puna
#11
Just for a bit of clarity, pun intended, the UV treatment of water is not a filter. It's a high-intensity UV bulb (like a fluorescent tube) that kills lots of, but not all, pathogens. It's usually used in conjunction with a series of filters. The bulbs can last a year or more, your mileage may vary (YMMV), but you do need to check it periodically to see if it's functional.

The series of filters will take out particulates to pathogens. These may need to be replaced as often as every month or less, YMMV. You can choose different pore sizes of filters: 30 microns down to 1 micron. A 1 micron filter may take care of the tiniest pathogens, but you sacrifice water pressure.

You can counter the lower pressure with a larger pressure pump, which means more dollars and probably an associated electrical bill increase. You may be looking at going from something like a 1/2 HP pump to a 1 HP pump, depending on your situation, to get your water pressure up to an acceptable level.

The last of your filters might be a carbon filter, which is supposed to clear up the taste, such as iron and chlorine. You can go with activated charcoal or carbon block, the latter also reduces water pressure, I believe.

In California, we had an ozonation system that treated our well-water in our storage tank. This cleaned up the water by exposing it to a UV bulb that created unstable ozone molecules (O-superscript3). The ozonated water would be cycled back into the holding tank using a diffuser that oxygenated the tank water. In the tank, the ozone molecules would recombine as oxygen molecules (O-superscript2) and, as in a mountain stream, would kill pathogens with the exposure to the oxygen molecules. This is similar to treating your water with hydrogen peroxide (HO), I think, where these unstable molecules recombine as water and oxygen molecules. Unfortunately, HO is expensive.

One would think that ozonation would be like UV treatment, but I think there's a difference in the intensity of the light. I think the UV tube in an ozone system is smaller than in a UV system (both tubes are still pricey). I don't know if a UV system uses ozonation as part of its method, or if it's just killing pathogens by exposure to that wavelength of light. Perhaps there's a list member who knows about the specifics of these systems.

I've been told that ozonation doesn't work on typical catchment systems because tank water levels are rarely constant and may be cloudier, which reduces the effectiveness of ozonation. In our well holding tank in CA (a 5K gal. plastic one, BTW), the water level was kept constant by way of a limit switch triggered by a float. When the water level dropped, the float dropped with it, turning on the well pump. When the float rose to a preset level, it would turn off the well pump. Ozonation had an added effect of precipitating out a lot of the minerals (like iron oxide, aka rust) in the water which was confined to a large, cylindrical paper filter.

I've been told that well water is considered "tastier", in general, because it usually has more mineral content. Catchment water on the Big Island is said to lack the mineral component, aside from some sulphuric acid from the volcanic activity. Does anyone feel that this is the case? Has anyone "improved" the taste of their catchment water by adding minerals? If so, what have you done?

If you drill your own well, it's probably imperative to have a treatment system of some level, given the number of cesspools in use around and upslope from your location.

Caveat: I'm not a water treatment expert, I'm just another catchment user.

Les

Edited by - Les C on 09/11/2006 12:19:57
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#12
Hey the Lamont Ranch is pretty new. How is the catchment going for the Lamonts any thing to add to this? I have had their water and their ice and it was hunkey dorey! So what mystical system do they have? LOL Thanks Mella

mella l
mella l
Art and Science
bytheSEA
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#13
Ozonation (O-3) is an extrememly unstable form of oxygen, thus it is an oxidant, thus it "burns" all things organic and many inorganic. You may sometimes detect the smell of ozone around electric motors, lightning, and any other source of open spark. It has a weird plasticky smell.

It ain't good for you. Those ozone/ion air filters that are so popular can be dangerous producers of ozone. Thankfully ozone reacts so readily that it rarely last for more than a few second or feet away from it's source. That's why you never put an ozone generator anywhere near your noggin. All those pics of someone sleeping happily to "fresher" air from their Ionic Breeze are risking permenant loss of sense of smell.

When ozone is used as a sanitizing oxidant in water is extremely effective. It kills any live organisms and breaks many other compounds down into more basic forms or precipitates which then drop out/settle or are mechanically filtered from the system. The one caveat being that the excess unreacted ozone needs to be off-gassed. This is generally done through aeration or towers where water flows over a turbulent surface thus allowing any left over ozone to be released. Ozone itself will break down into oxygen.

Ozone has and is successfully used in municipal and private water purification systems worldwide. It can be expensive at home, i'm not sure how much juice is needed by the generator, it may be unfeasible for solar homes as such. It also,like all home systems needs to be coupled with mechanical (screen, mesh, sand, or filter) filtration, to get the chunks out. Carbon/charcoal is purely for tastes, though it removes some metals and mineral. Not a problem unless your roof is rusty. It's a great technique, maybe not entirely necesarry here. It does need a knowlegeable install and maintenance.

No filtration system is going to fix a dead rat in your tank though, so keep your tank clean and use common sense. I also suggest the install of a "first flush" system that allows the initial runoff of your roof to bypass your cachement. This lets the rain rinse off your roof before filling into your tank.

Hope this helps.

hazen

P.S. Go with cachement Glen, it's so much safer and economical here. Plus you've still got a big supply of water for emergencies.

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#14
We were a little uncertain about being on catchment at first. However, after looking at the water in the tanks and tasting it our concerns have almost disappeared. The water is so clear that you can see right to the bottom of the tank...and we have the solid, black, fully-encapsalated ones, so that means really clear water.

Hazen - - when you say "I also suggest the install of a "first flush" system that allows the initial runoff of your roof to bypass your cachement. This lets the rain rinse off your roof before filling into your tank."
How do you do that?

We do plan on installing a UV system. Does anyone recommend a particular one?

Robin

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#15
"Ozonation...has a weird plasticky smell.

It ain't good for you. Those ozone/ion air filters that are so popular can be dangerous producers of ozone. Thankfully ozone reacts so readily that it rarely last for more than a few second or feet away from it's source. That's why you never put an ozone generator anywhere near your noggin."

No sh*t, Sparky! When I used to clean out the filter and diffuser in our well water holding tank, I had to be careful if I had to stick my head into the small tank opening, otherwise I'd pass out and fall in! While it didn't seem to be THAT critical (I have not made a before and after brain cell count), it felt "wrong" to stick your head in and inhale! Hey, maybe there's an application here for ozonation as a "rat filter"!

Robin, a first flush system can take many forms. Some come off your downspouts, some are placed just before your tank's input. You should talk to a catchment system installer for their experiences. Some will tell you that they don't think first flush systems work; they may not be the right person for the job.

We're working with Waterworks in Hilo for our treatment (including UV) and first flush system. I think the UV component needs to be sized for your water usage, but I don't know that much about it right now.

Les

Edited by - Les C on 09/11/2006 16:38:44

Edited by - Les C on 09/11/2006 16:40:01
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#16
Okay, you guys, kane and wahine, y'all...isn't there an inherent contradiction between advising me to go catchment and discussing how rats can get into your water? How does that happen anyway? Are there as many catchment systems as there are people? Doughboys to first flush systems. If I had catchment, I would have to have the very best. First flush, screens, no dead rats, slug-resistant, clear as a bell when I look down into it, non-corrosive pipes, PH balanced. I don't think such a system exists.

Tell me again -- are there people who come out and clean these things? Like a "Catchment Rooter"? Isn't there something over the top? If there is something over the top then how does the water get in?

If I drill, I drill to cesspools? Yech.

Oh, and wait -- if you have a well, the COUNTY CHARGES YOU FOR THE WATER???
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#17
Glen,

Very good systems exist, you'll find that some catchment companies don't quote the very best systems to you because most people don't want to spend the money for a good system. Tell them that you want to be able to drink your catchment water and expect to pay more for it.

You have the responsibility of maintaining your catchment system. You can hire people to do it, but there is a lot that is easy enough for you to do. You can keep your maintenance costs more reasonable this way. Many of the catchment companies don't clean and flush gutters, but they might refer you to people who do. The catchment companies will clean out your tank, change your liner, etc. but these are things that don't need frequent attention.

To reduce the chance of rats and other non-potable critters from getting into your tank, you keep accessways (like branches on nearby trees) away from the tank. Yes, you cover your tank. If you have a fabric cover (breathable), then have a support frame under it to keep it domed. If you allow the cover to sag into the tank, you'll end up with a pool on top where birds may want to bathe and poop. You can have a cone-shaped solid cover; they cost more than fabric. BTW, the fabric is very durable with 5 or more years of viability.

There is a strong grade of PVC pipes for catchment water that are rated to be put underground where trucks drive over them. These are strong and seem to hold up well to sunlight and acid rain.

You can check your own pH with litmus paper and balance the water with baking soda (assuming your problem will be more acidic in nature).

I'm not sure how to keep slugs out; that doesn't seem to be an issue for us.

Some people prefer county water to managing their own water. This may be the way for you to go if you want someone in an office somewhere else determining how much chemistry to add to your water.

Les
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#18
Another bonus feature of catchment water is in the future it might end up saving your Life? We all know that water is Life and you can last weeks without food but only a few days without water. In the event of a major disaster you only have to go as far as your own backyard for fresh drinkable water. I remember the 1971 Sylmar earthquake and with the water mains down the Red Cross was driving around handing out drinking water and sandwiches. I recently painted our catchment tank the same color as the roof, plantation green.

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#19
My best catchment was Dough boy way out from under trees in the open (no dead rats), no cover so I could see if there were dead rats or cats (even yuckkier). Floated a cholrine dispenser in it. Had 5 & 7 micron filters, brita at sink... best tasting water! (Course I grew up on LA water so anything else is upwards!)

Catherine Dumond
Blue Water Project Management
808 217-7578
http://bluewaterpm.125mb.com/index.html
"We help make building your dream home a reality"
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#20
I just spent part of today and yesterday cleaning out our gutters. It started to drizzle while I was on the last stretch. I have to say that I have a new-found respect for how a roof catchment works. Even in the lightest sprinkle, water builds up in the gutters and takes the downspout toward the tank. Now, I know how clean the water is that's going to our tank!

We just had our two large filter housings and UV light installed. This is an upgrade over a single standard(?)-sized filter. We have two of the same gauge large filters: composite 20 micron fiber with 10 micron carbon/coal. It's supposed to be a new type of filter. The large filter size is supposed to increase the maintenance schedule time (filters last longer) and the composite nature doesn't reduce water pressure as much as standard combinations of filters. The pressure is fine, at this time, at 45 psi using the .5 HP pump that was in place when we bought the house.

We dropped off samples at Bob's Catchment Testing yesterday, so we'll see how this treatment performs in a few days. I will update to the list when I find out.

Les
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