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I don’t recall one lawsuit resulting from any of it. Do you?
Q: Do you know how many lawsuits of all kinds are ongoing as we discuss this?
A: A lot
Q: Do you know how many of the total we’ve heard about?
A: Very few
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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It's almost like the government should provide some formal protections for Leilani landowners to disambiguate things. But no, they just want some graft, and for you guys to move out, and let our tourist industry nosedive...
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formal protections for Leilani landowners to disambiguate things
But there will be studies and talk story and listening sessions to "determine the need"!
Surely these can't all be just for show?!?
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"resistance is futile. When all is said and done, if you give folks a path they will follow it. If there is no path they will go every which way. They are just trying to have a good time. Why not accommodate them?"
For once I agree with glinda.
When we established a parking lot,painted directions on the street and provided luas and signage explaining the tidepools and our concerns, things were a lot better in our neighborhood.Wish we had done that sooner.
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"I suspect you have no idea how silly that sounds. Do you have examples of actual cases of this kind? We’ve had people traipsing across lava flows for what seems like forever and getting bust up in all sorts of ways and I don’t recall one lawsuit resulting from any of it. Do you?"
I'm pointing out that there is a difference between people trespassing in Waipio, which is not buried underneath lava and allows people to still live on their properties, and Leilani and other places in Lower Puna, where they can't but still own property but are unlikely to be in position to protect it from trespassers. I don't think that sounds silly.
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Isn't it logical that trespassing is more egregious when it is done on properties where people live, structures exist or have agriculture pursuits such as crops? And commonly there are fences and signs to protect the aforesaid.
And far less egregious when a property is devoid of all of the above and all is surrounded by numerous other properties that are also also devoid of the same? A large expanse of land in a natural state. What are you protecting from trespassing hikers here? Someone stealing a rock or some dirt?
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From another poster:
Q: Do you know how many lawsuits of all kinds are ongoing as we discuss this?
A: A lot
A lot? All I've heard this far is hearsay that lawsuits are commonly filed in Hawaii for injuries on vacant land, absent an attractive nuisance. In Hawaii the attractive nuisance (natural feature) that makes property owners most susceptible to litigation is ponds and streams. Hawaii has serious flash flood problems.
An example would be Anna's pond in Waimea. An attractive nuisance that has been the site of several rescues. Owner faces some liability risk.
A barren lava field? The ocean shoreline (which is dangerous everywhere)? Forest with cliffs and ravines (and no ponds)? Injury on those natural features will be highly unlikely to draw interest of litigation attorneys or the sympathy of a judge. As slanted as our system is to lawyers, Hawaii's judges aren't complete idiots.
If someone has contrary data, please provide it.
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I’m pointing out..
This discussion seems to be pointing to the same conclusion so many regarding the eruption do.. maybe folks that can’t handle the consequences of volcanic eruptions shouldn’t live where they are likely to occur.
As far as suggesting a land owner’s liability is different for one place verses another, such as between land in Hamakua verses Puna, in jungle or barren land, occupied or not, is fascinating. Can you point us to any resources that would substantiate this idea, explain the relative laws, if there are any?
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"As far as suggesting a land owner’s liability is different for one place verses another"
Will you stop squirming? I didn't say it was different from one place to another, I said it might be different depending on whether your land is covered in lava or not. Jeeze, do you understand simple English?
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Many people realize that if a property has a structure, it has liability...
Most are for getting that to get to those vast barren expanses of barren lava in the most recent flow, you must park near, walk on & use properties that have structures, & other human made debris (even a driveway counts, sheet metal, fence posts... the lava did not stop cleanly at a parking lot with luaus, it encroached on land that had human habitation & was completely surrounded by land with human habitation...
for all of these land owners, your actions on their land should be with the agreement of them, & for those that are still trying to wrap their new reality around their home, their property, their dreams, why are some trying to get them to share their land, without thought to their loss?
Waipio has not had a land loss since the tsunamis, & after the devastation, the land was reclaimed by the owners.... what would people think if people called for hiking trails over to the homes lost & the piles of tsunami debris & for tourists to slog through the loi destroyed by the tsunamis while the landowners were trying to assess their loss,.... I think most would think that was not pono....
Remember there are still those that have not yet received the closure on this disaster in order to not have raw feeling when folks just wanna traipse all over their personal devastation....
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Waipio has not had a land loss since the tsunamis
I imagine you have no idea about all the loss in the last few years in Waipio from flooding that has not been compensated for. Loss of homes, loss of farm land, loss of crops, no disaster relief, no county help, and barely any state help, and yet you speak as if you know better. Do you ever listen to yourself?
I have had my farm completely underwater from flooding. Have lost several loi, and all my huli washed out to sea, repeatedly.
But my farm land is in a flood plain. I know it is a flood plain, and do not expect others to compensate me, repair replace or otherwise come to save the day. Why should it be different for those that live in any kind of flood plain? But it is. Everyone's all bust up for the folks that lost their homes to the lava. But from my perspective they brought that on themselves. They bought there and should be able to accept the consequences. Just like I did when I bought farm land in Waipio and it was flooded.
As to access to the vent in Leilani. I think MR's observation that a road, a public county road, runs right through the place should should put paid to this discussion. Put in a path, add a few signs, and embrace the change. Parking? I am sure, positive, some enterprising land owner along the way would be happy as pie to put in a parking lot and a donation box. If this was anywhere else it would have been done already.
It's like county and their screwed up perspective. When lava was going into the ocean and folks were flocking to the end of the road in Kalapana a whole ecosystem of vendors showed up and things were good for a while. The tourists came, the folks that wanted to pedal stuff to them came, a few bucks exchanged hands, and a lot of folks were smiling. WTF was wrong with that? But no.. can't do that.. can't "trespass" in Leilani..
Oh, and btw.. folks that were stumbling around out there on those lava fields occasionally hurt themselves.. On private land, on state land, federal lands, and still with all those deep pockets involved I have yet to hear of any lawsuits... Sheesh, people died out there, without any lawsuits! But I am sure TomK is going to tell us all how many there really are hidden away somewhere... deep in his imagination.
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