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Peacefull tmt protectors
#51
quote:
Originally posted by glinda

"Spiritual nourishment and inspiration is of much greater and lasting value than anything money can buy."

And, sadly, this simple truth is lost on all those that don't get, believe, understand, have faith in, whatever you want to call, it. Yet in fact, for those that do, it is central to their world view.

You can replace "Spiritual" with "Scientific" and you end up with the same thing, except you don't have to bother with faith in something that really can't be defined or understood.
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#52
You have so much faith in the unknown Tom, how could you not? You believe the things you do even though they are a practically insignificant percentage of all things. As such, regardless of how we arrive at our conclusions we all apply an element of faith in our lives. In our understanding of the universe around us. You can say otherwise, and from your perspective you are right, for you. But please don’t fool yourself into believing you understand others. As I am sure you would not want others to fool themself into thinking they understand you.
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#53
All I'm saying is that you can replace the word spiritual with scientific in Tulsi's statement and nothing changes. You can lecture me all you want, it's what you like to do as well as insulting people, but it won't change anything. There are people who prefer evidence in order to understand the universe and there are people who don't. That was my point. I think it's a simple one.
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#54
Kaimana - seriously what are his credentials?

The Apo link isn't an appeal to his authority on the matter, but rather just a convenient short-hand summary of some of the information in the Mauna Kea Cultural Resources Management Plan
http://www.malamamaunakea.org/uploads/ma...P_2009.pdf (which seems to say the same thing, but with more PhDs attached)

The question isn't whether or not Mauna Kea was/is considered sacred, it's what does that status entail - sacred top to bottom, specific sites, no access for all non-ali'i, no construction, or just no TMT. Of course any contemporary claims can be made, but state law has special protections only for traditional practices. In short, details matter.

ironyak - this doesn't discount the fact that the early Hawaiian Kingdom (e.g. circa 1819) was instrumental in seeking to suppress and eliminate traditional Hawaiian cultural and religious practices. Can you at least agree to that?

Seems like this might have been overlooked. It would seem that addressing complicated history would require first acknowledging it.
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#55
""Spiritual nourishment and inspiration is of much greater and lasting value than anything money can buy."

And, sadly, this simple truth is lost on.."

Not only is this mere opinion declared to be The Truth but it is a "simple truth". I think education is of much greater and lasting value than "spiritual nourishment" (see: The Enlightenment) but that's my opinion, I won't declare it to be The Truth.
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#56
If the mountains are so sacred...why do they let the military continue to do practice bombing runs and war games just a few miles away?
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#57
On 1 Sep 1983, a Soviet fighter shot down a South Korean airliner that had strayed into Soviet airspace. All 269 people aboard, including a U.S. Congressman, were killed. Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko justified the action, saying, "Soviet airspace is sacred."
Now that's sacred.

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#58
why do they let the military continue to do practice bombing runs and war games just a few miles away?

From: https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/05/17...pohakuloa/

State’s highest court hears challenge to live-fire training on Big Island ceded lands

May 16, 2019 - Updated May 16 at 7:36 PM

HONOLULU, Hawaii (HawaiiNewsNow) - In a case that echoes the battle to stop bombing of Kahoolawe, the state Supreme Court heard arguments Thursday over the Army’s live-fire training at the Pohakuloa Training Area on the Big Island.

Two residents allege the state failed to protect ceded lands.

Since 1964, the state has leased 22,900 acres at the Pohakuloa Training Area to the U.S. Army as part of a 65-year agreement.

But Hawaiian cultural practitioners Clarence Ku Ching and Mary Maxine Kahaulelio sued the Department of Land and Natural Resources and got a Circuit Court judge to order the state to do more to protect lands from destruction by getting the Army to clean up unexploded ordnance.

"It's still military. It's still bombing. What can I say what they do. Enough is enough," said Kahaulelio.

The state's own inspection in 2014 found the ceded lands with explosive hazards and significant military debris.

"There are internal memos from 2011 and 2013 that DLNR acknowledged there’s a likelihood or possibility of unexploded ordnance on public trust ceded land yet the department did nothing. It never wrote a letter asking the Army can you clean things up," said David Kimo Frankel, the plaintiffs' attorney.

But the state filed an appeal to the high court saying the Army should determine if there were any contract violations and that the United States should have been a party in the case.

"The DLNR and officials considered the U.S. to be in compliance with the lease so in order for plaintiffs to show it was incorrect, they have to allege and show it was wrong," said Ewan Rayner, deputy solicitor general.

At the hearing, the plaintiffs and their attorneys talked about the destruction at Kahoolawe. They hope Pohakuloa avoids a similar fate.

"We know all the problems of Kahoolawe including they will never completely clean up the aina," said Ching.

The justices did not indicate when they'd rule on the case.
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#59
quote:
Originally posted by glinda

You have so much faith in the unknown


..and so do several hundred others up on a mountain getting sunburned.
How is the “spiritualness/sacredness” of Mauna Kea any more “known”?

Puna: Our roosters crow first
Puna: Our roosters crow first
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#60
Mauna Kea is sacred as it was believed to be so in pre-contact times (as recorded soon after contact at least as early as ~1823) and this belief is still held by some today. Or to fall completely into the rabbit-hole of epistemology, how is anything "known"?

I've completely lost track of the purpose for each of these threads, but if this is supposed to be about peacefulness of the protests, does anyone have a good explanation of these DLNR releases emphasizing DOCARE talking and chilling with the activists? De-escalation? Undemonizing? Push-back on the "Forcible removal of elders" narrative? It's unclear what the goal of this PR effort is (and highlights how unsavvy the state is on the social media front).

https://www.facebook.com/HawaiiDLNR/post...7356496487
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