High Speed Rail Between Hilo and Kona

[csgray]

When I was growing up in Southern Indiana I used to ride my horse over the remnants of a system of InterUrban trolleys that had operated between most towns and cities until the auto industry got the lines ripped up in the fifties. These were open sided electric trolleys running through farm land connecting rural farmers, small towns and small cities with big towns and cities in an area with about the same size and population density as the Big Island has now. However the weather in January in the midwest is a whole lot less hospitable than ours is for riders of open sided trolleys.

The big difference is that this system was installed as an upgrade on horse drawn wagons over muddy roads, so it was welcomed as an improvement by the people who became customers. Currently we require government subsidies to attempt to create systems which could wean people away from their cars. Personally I think there are a lot of people in outlying areas of the Island who would love to take an interurban trolley to school or work if the connectivity was feasible once they got to their hub in Pahoa, Hilo, Kailua, or Waimea. Tourists would also use it during the off-peak hours, especially those from places where they are used to public transportation like Europe, Japan and China. Maybe we need to look at lower tech solutions than high speed rail, including systems which worked in the past before everyone started to think that the only feasible form of transportation is a car, truck, or SUV. Just a little food for thought.

carol

[Carey]

Everyone who is giving examples of high speed rail are using areas that have populations that are more than 10x the population of this island. The economics of scale would probably mean that a high speed rail would probably not be feasable until the poopulation of this island approached the population of the communities that everyone is mentioning. Oahu is now looking at rail options. Their population is about 10x our island. Do you want over a million people living on this island? (Hubby also mentioned that the gradient over the Saddle would not be very good for the normal high speed rail systems)
The bus takes 40-45 minutes from Pahoa to the mall...with stops in Hawaiian Beaches....Really not that much slower than driving. Over the last two years they have added buses to the Pahoa route, so there are now 6 RT buses per day, 1st one starting at 6 in the morning into and ending at 10 at night. Almost all routes are now very close to the schedule (there is a midday route that should be tweaked, as it is rarely on time) How do I know? I ride the bus almost everyday. Is it as convienent as driving? NO! But it is not bad. The ride is free, anywhere on island. You can even take your bike ($1). For high speed we do have the option of air travel...
Pam, HOVE has a very limited transit, One bus a day during the week to Hilo - some students & profs use it to get to the University & some people that ride do so for jobs in Hilo, Some HOVE residents also work at the National Park & take the bus. Even with using a mini bus, it is usually not full until the Keaau stop. The students I have talked to say it is not bad, they would like more options...but they also realize that ridership on the one bus would need to increase to justify more.

[hpp4me]

quote:

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Everyone who is giving examples of high speed rail are using areas that have populations that are more than 10x the population of this island.

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For example, BART costs $200 million per mile to expand. While it is true that land costs are lower on the Big Island, it is also true that BART already has made the investment in command infrastructure. Even with a foundation to build upon, expansion is very pricey. Simply adding a few miles of track requires city votes, years of debate, and endless argument. A recent case is the expansion to BART down to San Jose.

I contrast, in Northern California light rail costs "only" $20-40 million per mile. I think that comes out to about $100 per mile for each resident on the big island.

Buses are slower but costs matter also.



Edited by - hpp4me on 09/01/2007 20:04:26

[Daniel]

I had the wonderful opportunity to live in Chile for two years. I never had a car, or a bike. The transit system is great there. It mostly depends on buses called "la Micro" but there are taxis (pay by the mile) and as they are called in chile "colectivos", which are cars that follow the bus route and cost a little bit more. Very few people have cars there. And the ones that do dont take them on long road trips. So a city the size of hilo would have like 10 or 15 routes, each with its own number. There were also routes between cities, and also cross country. You pay one flat rate and ride as long as you want. It usally cost about 25-50 cents. Im sure its more now, because it was about 3 years ago when I came home. It was very easy to get around, and I didn't spend much at all on transportation. And the beauty of it all was the system seemed to have simply evolved that way. It wasn't built or funded by the government.

Daniel R Diamond

[morganlady]

It was a conspiracy against the consumers when the tire companies, oil industry and the automakers bought and tore out the trolley systems (our Detroit one was sold to Mexico) - this I learned when I took an Environment class at the community college in Flint (where the successful sit-down strike gave us a powerful UAW).
My grandmother talked about "jitneys" wheich were private citizens with a car, who would take riders for a fee. They didn't have cellphones and I don't know if they scheduled themselves, but those without other options had them work. This was up near Calumet, where many Nationalities had to learn to get along - most were immigrants and they all learned to diversify and depend on each other (milk delivery, junk collector, I won't tell you the names she used)
I've purchased a Central Park carriage (holds 2 couples plus a driver) and am thinking about a Pahoa ride/service. When its weatherproofing is up, it resembles the Fisher Body Coach. Fuel would grow, not be shipped in a tanker! COuld probably find a use for the manure, too!

[wjbillock]

quote:

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(Hubby also mentioned that the gradient over the Saddle would not be very good for the normal high speed rail systems)
The bus takes 40-45 minutes from Pahoa to the mall...with stops in Hawaiian Beaches....Really not that much slower than driving. Over the last two years they have added buses to the Pahoa route, so there are now 6 RT buses per day, 1st one starting at 6 in the morning into and ending at 10 at night. Almost all routes are now very close to the schedule (there is a midday route that should be tweaked, as it is rarely on time) How do I know? I ride the bus almost everyday. Is it as convienent as driving? NO! But it is not bad. The ride is free, anywhere on island. You can even take your bike ($1). For high speed we do have the option of air travel...
Pam, HOVE has a very limited transit, One bus a day during the week to Hilo - some students & profs use it to get to the University & some people that ride do so for jobs in Hilo, Some HOVE residents also work at the National Park & take the bus. Even with using a mini bus, it is usually not full until the Keaau stop. The students I have talked to say it is not bad, they would like more options...but they also realize that ridership on the one bus would need to increase to justify more.

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Carrie, I commend you for your knowledge and for riding the bus. However, I'm not talking about a trip from Pahoa to the mall. I'm not looking for another alternative for the "slow" travel method that you are so proud of. We have the bus system and our vehicles. Wonderful to hear!

What I'm suggesting is the alternative to the air travel you mention as the only scheduled direct flight between Hilo and Kona is on Island Air.
As for gradients over saddle road, MagLev trains don't seem to have these issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_le...Propulsion

Take your bus to Kona...I'll wave to you on my way back that evening!

"What? Me Worry?" - Alfred E. Nueman

Edited by - wjbillock on 09/02/2007 13:04:59

Edited by - wjbillock on 09/02/2007 13:12:02

[Jeffhale]

Personally, I tend to agree with Carrie. The point of economics, I do not think there is a taxpayer base large enough on Hawaii to, not just make the basic payment but the maintenance too. Add in earthquake and the costs go higher. Japan has well over 1/3, (128 million), the population as the entire USA; (298 million). I've ridden the fast trains, bullet, and others in Japan too. Pretty impressive.

Japan has the economic base to afford their fast trains.. Los Angeles recently installed a train system at tremendous expense, as it's not working out.. Hawaii at 150 thousand, in my opinion, lacks the finical strength for a system to and from Kona any way you look at it.. It's much more likely priority would be; increased building or completing a highway on saddleback and adding more busses to these routes.. .

[Carey]

Bill, we were in Birmingham UK right after they had closed down the maglev for all of the problems. The residents had a lot to say about that system, and none of it was good. Right now there are very few example of maglev systems, and all have cost much more than planned. So, you really need to ask if there is any way you can see that 150,000 people can reasonably come up with almost 100 miles of track & the infrastruture AND maintenance. (most likely that would equal tens of thousands of dollars that each man, woman, and child would need to pay... kinda makes that air fare seem like a deal).



Edited by - carey on 09/02/2007 19:03:53

[JerryCarr]

As many folks have noted here, the cost is the main obstacle to the Big Island having any kind of rail transit. At the VERY conservative low-end cost for trolley-type light rail of $15 million per mile, it would cost $1.5 billion for a Hilo-Honokaa-Waimea-Wailoloa-Kona line running near Highway 19. A fifteen mile extension into Puna would add $225 million to the cost. In order to get the folks in Mountain View-Volcano-Kau-South Kona on board politically, we would have to extend the thing all the way around the island, doubling the cost while increasing the potential ridership onlly marginally.

This being Hawaii, we can assume the $15 million per mile figure to be wildly optimistic. Nothing other than the fill rock to level the track bed could be produced locally.

I personally am a big fan of rail transit. I lived in Atlanta for nearly 20 years and frequently used MARTA rail. Also, it is true that people who would never get on a bus will ride trains. I had an employee in Atlanta who would ride the train to the end of the line at Indian Creek and then take a $15 taxi the rest of the way home when the bus was a free transfer. I asked why, and he told me he thought it was "low-class" to ride the bus. What a mentality.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Alas, we can't afford rail transit.

Cheerfully hoping for continued improvements in our bus system,
Jerry