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Kathy, I'm sorry to see this happen, I deal with contractors about everyday. I have been burned by a couple in my history!
My procedure when getting a new (to me) contractor is to ask around about them.
Get at least three references. And talk to them - make sure they aren't relatives or family members of the contractor!
I also:
Check to see how long in business.
Get insurance (worker's comp and liability) information and call the insurance company to verify it's current!
Secure a written, detailed bid. Get start and stop dates and detail contingencies (weather delays, etc)
After bid is accepted, form a written contract.
Get lien wavers.
Consider paying for and having materials delivered yourself.
Do not pay more than 30% in advance.
Get all vehicle license numbers, get home addresses of contractor and possibly all his workers. I do not do business with anyone who just has a P.O. box and no address.
Lots of contractors accept credit cards.....another avenue of redress of you get scammed.
Finally, I was burned by a smooth-talking painter who actually did about 14000 in damage to one of my properties. I withheld payment and he threatened to sue. Got a letter from his lawyer and I promptly sent back pictures and other proof of his damage - have nnot heard from them again. Company finally settled, sending me $10000 payment for damages and cancelling my debt.
Puna: Our roosters crow first
no, I don't take it badly, KahunaScott.
I hope I made it clear that I was kicking myself and not asking for pity.
Thank you Scott and EightFingers for posting the excellent "how to hire a contractor" tips.
The first point of my post is warning about this guy's personality as much as his unprofessional attitude.
The second point is that with a community like Punaweb, where we make referrals to each other of good people to work with, a "Punaweb referral" can cause a person (like myself) to let down the normal guard of asking for references, photos, and a whole lot of info that I would always ask for if I contacted the person cold or responding to their ad.
It's the "friend of a friend" syndrome ...
As to the debate over whether one must always use a licensed contractor, I do not believe that for small jobs one should have to hire a licensed guy. In Hawai'i, the powers that be make it hard for someone to get a license, unless you know people, and relatively easy to get a license if you have relatives and connections in the business. There are very capable people who choose to work the small jobs, and I know quite a few of them who do great work and don't overcharge.
So, that is a matter of personal philosophy.
For my house, I just did an addition, and I absolutely hired a licensed electrician and permitted the job. By the way, Scott says not to pay any money down, so I will just say that with my licensed electrical contractor, they do not start work without a down payment, and neither did the other electrical contractor who bit the job.
I think it may be getting more common for the contractor to want a down... there are two sides to the trust issue.
Back to this job, had I seen this job as a contractor type project, I would have done it differently, but I saw it as a small job, a "clearing job." It was never meant to be a landscaping project or a grading project, just cutting down overgrowth. It was more of a tough job than yard maintenance, but it was not building.
Absolutely we still should have sketched it, written out the details, written out the terms, and so forth. I really don't know what I was thinking except that I'm exhausted from finishing up the permit project and getting through an exterior paint job, and not having had a day off of dealing with the house for months, and I was happy that someone who lives here and posts on Punaweb had used this guy multiple times and been satisfied, and the idea of getting this relatively small job knocked out appealed to me.
Frankly, there is NO WAY this particular job was going to happen going through all those steps and channels ... it was either going to be pretty simple or do it yourself. My son has a chain saw and can do clearing, but I needed to take something off his plate.
Was it a mistake to use this guy? Absolutely, mea culpa.
Always a mistake to hire a worker without a contractor's license? For some yes, for me no.
The liability insurance is of course a good point. Homeowner's insurance offers some coverage for people getting hurt. He was not an employee. I know a young man who WAS working as an employee but under the table, who did get hurt, and in his case he had to take the consequences of the lack of insurance. He had nothing in writing and wasn't paying into disability or workman's comp, so he was out of luck. There is a lot of risk for workers who go this route and it is certainly a gamble.
Scott, you said this was a quote, not a bid. Well, he called it a bid and it was definitely not an estimate. It was a firm price for the entire job. I know the difference between when someone is making an estimate but not committing to the final cost. As in, I charge this much per day or hour and this looks like a three day job. No, it wasn't like that. It was "I will do this (description of scope) for $1000, with 30% down and 70% on completion.
And he flaked, and lesson learned ... that I didn't know enough about him and should have gone with a more established and "over the table" clearing service. Yep. Lesson learned too that people aren't so easy to judge even when they seem very reasonable.
As it turns out, the original referrer had, since the time of posting, had gotten a glimpse of the guy's angry side ... and after that happened would not have referred him. But I had contacted him a couple months ago and was just now getting around to the job. Another lesson, update that referral by checking ...
Pictures -- I did take pictures before and immediately after he left. At least I did that.
I really appreciate all the pointers for myself and others and am not on the defensive here. Like I said, it was dumb on my part. I tend to see the good in people and do not expect someone to have a meltdown like this ... the guy CAN clear trees, but he has some serious issues that make him undesirable.
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Aloha KathyH. I am sorry to hear you tale of distress. It is very flattering to think of "Punaweb referral" in such complementary terms. We do have a lot of experience available here on site and unfortunately it is not always good experience.
Please everyone, always do your due diligence, check references, check licenses. And remember Punawebs disclosure:
All postings, business listings and advertisements are made available here, without charge, as a public service by Punaweb. No recommendations or endorsements of any specific posting, business listing or advertisement are made or implied by Punaweb.
Punaweb moderator
Assume the best and ask questions.
Punaweb moderator
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Hi All,
My first comment is about Kathy's comment about an uninsured employee. BE AWARE that if a worker on your project, no matter who hired him, no matter what the terms of how he is paid, is injured on your jobsite and there is no Worker's Comp, THEN....YOU ARE LIABLE!!! Your homeowners insurance will cover incidental laborers such as the neighbor boy mowing your lawn, etc., but not a paid worker on a construction project. Always ask for W.C. certificate.
Secondly; It is customary in construction projects of any size for a Maximum of 10% deposit to be charged at the time of signing the contract. Mobilization and time commitment are costly. Imagine if you are a contractor, you show up with your crew, do the excavation, pour the foundation and the owner bails!
In Caifornia, where I hold a G.C. license, Worker's Comp is mandatory when there are employees. Liability insurance is not mandatory, but that must be disclosed in the contract.
Liability insurance can run between 2-4% of a project. That can be $8,000! I make it the owner's choice. A course of construction policy is usually $500-1,000 for a new home and the coverage for the homeowner is nearly the same.
The rule is: Check references thoroughly and FIRST. If this is a new home, you will be in bed with your contractor for a long time and he will be holding your family jewels, so DON'T BE LAZY. At least 5 references followed up carefully before you even ask for a bid. Know that you want to hire him before you ask for a bid. Then ask about the $.
Semi-retired GC, Dan
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A-ha,Dan! Now we know your secret.And you make cabinets too?
Don't plan to retire yet.
___________________________
Whatever you assume,please
just ask a question first.
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Hope,
No more cabinets. Years of no respirator, sawdust, lacquer and Camels = lung disease. Under control now, but no mo irritants. Gotta run when Vog comes.
Design, consult and build for myself is all now. Can't get it outta my blood. I just love to build.
I had considered doing some spec building when I was first on BI, but after experiencing the work ethics of the local labor pool, I got over that notion.
Dan
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I thought you have to have a written contract to enforce a mechanic's lien...and that the lien clause MUST be in the contract & read, out loud, to the homeowner (by the contractor) at time of signing. That was the overall impression I got when I read the Lien laws last year. However, I'll state, for the record, that I could be totally wrong [  ]
* I'd rather fail at happiness than succeed at misery *
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Aloha KathyH
TROY STENZEL s one of the first we had our experience with. The reason we (I) hired him was he seemed very personable. At the time he had a 'partner' who was very good looking (he reminded me of 'Sawyer' in the LOST episodes) and perhaps that's why he brought him along. His partner knew what he was doing. Troy hardly did any work. He also had a couple of young men working on handclearing the property. But in reality Troy did about 15 minutes worth of work. Turns out he acted with us exactly the same way he did with you. Cussed at us, started throwing rocks and things out into the open, but nevertheless very scary. When I had the satisfaction of telling him he was fired and asked him how much we owed him, he mentioned an outrageous amount, which we paid because we didn't want him to retaliate, we were afraid of him, his actions, expressions, etc. We just wanted him to get off our property. When he did we called the cops, which didn't (or couldn't) do anything. The only explanation we have is that he is a thief and must use some kind mood altering substance, because he was acting very irrational. He switched sides between me and my husband. Some days he'd be 'sweet ' to me and other times he'd be nice to my husband.
Now and again I see his 'handclearing Eastside' advertisement on the newspaper. Hope everyone who reads this stays CLEAR of this guy.
cubanishi, wow, thanks for posting the details of your experience. When did this happen? I too thought there was a mood-altering substance in play, but someone else who knows him says that his personality is naturally very hyper and impatient.
Good to know.
About all the legal issues -- great as the tips are, and the information, I wish they were going onto the contractors from hell topic as a resource.
The reason I started this topic wasn't to get a general discussion about contractors, but to talk about THIS person in particular, and to get the trauma of the experience off my chest.
While I don't have much money at all, and needed the work done -- oddly that isn't the worst of it for me. Being the recipient of the anger, accusations, and insults was traumatic, and left me feeling battered psychically.
Soon enough the project will be in the past, but the memory of the screaming and yelling might last longer.
By the way, I have dealt with a lot of building over the years, a good deal of it not my own but with very close neighbors, and I have had bad experiences with unlicensed workers and general contractors and subs. By "bad" I mean having them yell and threaten and act like pricks. The mere fact of having a license doesn't guarantee the person's not an utter jerk, unfortunately.
To Rob -- what you said about Punaweb endorsements -- absolutely did not mean from Punaweb as an entity. I merely mean it's a community, and I think it's a better community than, say, craigslist. I mean craigslist is a great thing, but it's mostly all about commerce and there are scammers who troll it. Maybe on Punaweb too, but I just want to reiterate that Mrs.hikatz, who gave me the referral, is not at fault here. She called me and I think she's a LOVELY person ... I am not upset with anyone on Punaweb.
Anyone else have a run in with Troy?
WOW.....
I’m willing to bet that if you had spent as much energy clearing that path yourself rather than writing a novel about the “bad guy” you would have the path that you wanted and you would be $-up. I don’t think that this person will last long here in this small community of Puna, Honolulu may be another story. You made a mistake by trying to save some $ and it didn’t work. Lick your wounds and chalk it up to experience and stop sniveling. Next time look before you leap.
The Lack
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