Accident on Hwy 130

[Jon]

LOL... Not so much...
I watch people use the the 90 degree corners at the top of Hawaiian Beaches as a race track... right through the stop sign and school zone...




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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.

[Rob Tucker]

So Jon, What does that mean? I've watched people run stop lights and stop signs too.

[Jon]

What it means is that you are not going to make things better by just changing the roads. "Roundabouts" are not a panacea, any more than Traffic Lights are. They have many problems.

Again, you can't use roads to make a more polite populace.






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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.

[Rob Tucker]

Your point is lost on me. So perhaps we don't need roads? If there is no point in tying to make things better why not just walk on foot trails through the jungle?

Civic progress has had to face making changes and improvements in transportation systems since ancient times. The issue of roundabouts is not a proposed as a panacea. It is proposed as a practical alternative to signalized intersections. If roundabouts are panaceas then so are signalized intersections.

The truthful fact that there are drivers who will make a mess of a straight and level roadway does not negate the need for the rest of us for reasonably safe passage. It is akin to the truthfulness of the adage "locks are for honest people". Roundabouts and traffic signals are for reasonably capable drivers.

[JerryCarr]

Rob and Jon, you're both right. Intelligent road design has been well-proven to reduce fatalities, and people still manage to do stupid things and get killed on even the best designed roads. I just wish our DOT would consider doing something outside their usual model and listen to the citizens for a change. One only has to look at Honolulu to see that their model is horribly flawed.

Cheers,
Jerry

[punafish]

I’m on the fence on the roundabout issue, so I appreciate the discussion.

I agree with Jon about taking personal responsibility for one’s own safety. But it doesn’t logically follow that the environment didn’t make the accident more likely. Very few problems/accidents have just one cause. Environmental factors certainly can contribute to and exacerbate problems.

Here’s what I don’t get: a certain percentage of the population runs red lights and stop signs, therefore roundabouts are a bad idea.

Using the same logic, then shouldn’t we also eliminate stop signs and red lights too?

Environmental factors have been shown to change culture and behavior, but it doesn’t happen overnight. As a former plant manager and productivity improvement consultant, I observed on many occasions factory accidents drop off based on multi-faceted strategies including education, improved layouts, job rotation policies, a clean, orderly, safe environment, visual management systems, safety mechanisms on equipment, etc. Lots of “causes” converge to create accidents and problems (not only individual behavior), so it only makes sense to employ a multi-pronged attack. Why wouldn’t the same basic logic apply in making our roads safer?

But… I agree that many drivers in Hawaii don’t understand the concept of “merge”. When you come from a big city, you learn early in life that merging is an indispensible driving skill. Chicago doesn’t have many roundabouts (got one in Des Plaines, though), but if you don’t know how to merge in the big city, then you can’t get on the expressway to get to work, not to mention that you tick off all the feisty drivers behind you who KNOW how to merge (anyone from a big city knows what I’m talking about). It would certainly take time to change the driving culture here. In the long run, is it worth it? I’m keeping an open mind…

Tim

[Rob Tucker]

I would not describe myself as a true roundabout advocate. I am very much open to them and want to know more. I have also been offended by HDOT officials who dismiss out of hand any ideas that compete with their own.

Regarding roundabouts I am attracted to a few things.
1) The safety data is both logical and reassuring. Left hand turns are seriously hazardous compared to right hand turns.
2) They save gas. Millions of automobile hours idling at stop lights and accelerating and decelerating are wasteful and costly.
3) They work when the power is out. At the most difficult moments - earthquake, hurricane, drunk driver hits power pole, other power outages - roundabouts function without electricity. They are full time low maintenance.
4) aesthetically they are more attractive and provide opportunities for landscaping and a natural look. Better than galvanized steel poles and overhead wires.

I am convinced that HDOT's reluctance to embrace roundabouts is because HDOT is more interested in serving it's contractors needs and wants than the public's. HDOT is an engine that consumes tax dollars. They and their contractors know fully and precisely how much profit can be gained from a signalized intersection. Roundabouts mean they can't be sure of profits because they haven't done them before.

In August of 2006 I got a public promise from HDOT officials that they would produce and deliver a cost/benefit analysis of roundabouts and signalized intersections. After waiting some months for the info I called them. They had no intention of producing a cost/benefit analysis. They said there was no point in it because even if roundabouts had excellent C/B results they (HDOT) had no intention of building any anyway. HDOT serves the contractors. That needs to change.

[PaulW]

Rob, are you serious? Why would HDOT be in thrall to the contractors? And even if they were, money saved with roundabouts can easily be spent elsewhere.

I'm all for roundabouts, seen them work fantastically all over the world.

[Rob Tucker]

I am just telling you what they (HDOT) told me. It is my opinion that they protect the profits of the contractors. HDOT officials and contractor execs and consultants are a kind of revolving door.

[Jon]

"Here’s what I don’t get: a certain percentage of the population runs red lights and stop signs, therefore roundabouts are a bad idea. "

The problem is all the drivers are now trained on how to deal with lights... and you have that 1% that still don't get it, but the other 99% kows how to deal with that 1%...

now toss in a new thing that only 50% know how to deal with... and you have another 50% causing problems.... I am sure over 5 to 10 years people will learn how to drive through them, but it will be a mess for years..

also, HDOT can't just put 1 in and test it, it will fail because of the driver training problem, the decision to put them in needs to be universal, if they fit here, they need to go everywhere they will work, not just where there is money to put them. Otherwise the 5 to 10 years could take 20 to 30 years to train the drivers.



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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.