Lava viewing

[Greg]

To clarify things, robguz;

You can't get to the Lava Ocean entry without tresspassing on private property. Most of this land is owned by hawaiians whose ancestors have been there for generations. Access is allowed to area property owners and a few HVO scientists and film crews with permits from Civil defense.
_____________________________________________________________________

The County of Hawaii and the local families that own the land have reached a legal arrangement to make a portion of their land accessable to the public. Conditions of this arrangement are that no entrance fee will ever be charged, and that visitors stay within the designated area. The authority that officials excercise is from the area being declared a federal disaster area.
______________________________________________________________________

If you own property, you probably share the same concerns about property rights and liability that the County and the landowners have. Why should they be denied the same consideration that I'm sure you expect with your own property?

So the expense, danger and trouble that responders (and taxpayers) go through is just a small part of the equation.

I notice that Hazen didn't bring up the small detail that tresspassers in the lava zone are subject to fines and arrest by DLNR and/or County officials......Also a "sublimely meaningful" experience.

edit: The area is closed tonight(Sun)due to unfavorable wind conditions.




Stoneface

[dakine]

the private property issue might not be as strong as one thinks, in that some property owners might actually feel ok with people crossing their land, land they are admittedly doing very little with at the moment, to have a "sublimely meaningful" experience.

[Greg]

Yes, and it would be very reasonable to find out which property owners are OK with this before setting out. []

I forgot to mention; Mahalo dakine for donating some of your fine work to the "Toys for Tots" fundraiser last week!



Stoneface

[dakine]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greg
I forgot to mention; Mahalo dakine for donating some of your fine work to the "Toys for Tots" fundraiser last week!

---

what frankie wants frankie gets. she's been way too kind and caring to so many over the years, myself included, that I'm happy to support any cause she feels strongly about, especially such a worthy one.

[Hazen]

I seem to have pissed someone off.

Thank you to those of you who wrote me personally in response to my post. i never would have thought that a clear, educational-intended post would evoke such response. So in response:

i personally try to never disrespect anyone's property. i use well established maintained and exsisting routes for my access to the lava, if you are concerned about trespassing then use the viewing site as an access point. that's what the vast number of people do after 10pm, it is a well worn trail that's been there for years. i believe parts of it were setup by the county and university. i do suggest the coast though because teh sand thrown up by waves is easier to walk on there are less cracks to fall into or get caught in. recognize things are in constant flux out there.

Anyone with half a day's experiece in puna recognizes that this entire coastline has free access to camper's, fisherfolk, and vagrant despoilers alike. many folks, immigrant (aren't we all?) and local alike live on our coast. i merely walk it.

if you happen to "own" a piece of the coast, or a piece of property that people use to access the public coast i encourage you to limit access, post signs, and wreak whatever kind of havoc you want upon those who ignore your warnings. i personally get very upset everytime i carry trash back to my house from hiking along ALL of our coastline be it in kalapana, kapoho, hpp, or the hamakua valleys. i encourage respect and care of all our aina, private and public. most the trash is from people fishing and/or partying. a few giving the many a bad name. the vast majority are a welcome sighting to these eyes, i love seeing families and old couples out fishing or staring into the ocean. many right across the street from my residence. would you vilify these folks too?

i'm not quite sure where race or ethnicity comes into this discussion, but my ancestry (for what it doesn't matter) is certainly not in any way hawaiian, that said, i have a hard time understanding where greg (who i assume must be a full blood hawaiian) finds it appropriate to tell someone who lives in kalapana, is a member of the community here, knows, loves, and interacts with said community along all cultural and racial lines that he is being "extremely disrespectfull". I have never heard anything of this sort from my community. As to vilifying my personal hiking experiences as "stoking my lagging self-esteem", well i think you certainly make one of us look like an ass by lending that personal attack to a stranger. it saddens me to think what kind fo mindset you were in that led you this statement. generally self-righteousness comes from fear and not love. i encourage you to witness and explore our island however you are comfortable greg, i assume we will both do it in ways that don't hurt anyone else. i regularly see many wonderfull and intrepid persons out at the flow, sometimes, ones in sandals, or without sufficent lights or clothing, i always politely warn these folks off. i have often given my lights to strangers on my way out and had them be gracious enough to return them to me later at their inconvenience. someone even mailed a headlamp back to me, they had an early flight i guess. I find this sort of experience as an example of humanity's best. i have treated a fews scrapes, taken many a photo for others. i have never seen so much as a laceration needing stitches. which is... pretty amazing, considering how treacherous it can become out there. that said, i have had run ins with crazy white mainland coots complaining about us being disrespectfull for being there, while he was taking pictures, telling us that we were going to hell because we didn't believe in his god. whatever. ALOHA. i once met a young guy high on mushrooms out at the flow who intended to sit there all night. he would not come back with us, i see him around frequently i'm happy he handled himself. i've seen intrepid princesses and egotistical photo hounds who wanted to hoot and holler at the excitement of the flow. welcome to puna! we don't discriminate much, it seems. the vast majortiy of the hikers are quiet, zero-impact, respectfull people who live here or are visiting. Most want to witness something dangerous and amazing. it is them i would ask for help if i was to befall a calamitious event. i've helped pull people barely alive and barely dead out of the ocean at kehena, no one ever sues over these events! only an idiot would sue over their own behavior out on the flow at night. people sue for falling down in parking lots, do we cordon off parking lots? make them illegal? no one criticizes when someone calls a helicopter at poihiki, richardson's or kehena. i am amazed and gratefull that the community and amazing rescue officers are so empassioned and fearless in their responses. I trust in them for emergencies. I love how we are pulling together as a community during these hard economic times. i am the first to tell people when it's not a good idea to get in on the wrong side of the beach on a big day after a few beers. i'll be the first to warn people off a lava hike on a cloudy, rainy, or moonless night.

not long ago the lava was always open. i applaud mayor kim's efforts at minimalizing the impact of organized lava tourism, and keeping foolhardy persons out of danger. most bus tourist are not ready to hike out to the lava. i often had to chase arnott's vans filled with ungainly sunblocked-soaked tourists out slippery delicate kapoho tidepools. Kim worked civil defense, he knows how stupid people can be, he found an elegant solution for the many. boats, cruiseships, and helicopters which have had many many accidents are allowed, as of course, are academics and film crews. I would love to not see the cruiseship 3/4 of a mile off the flow, i'd love to not hear helicopters all day, i'd like to not hear about drunk captains and sunken boats. these folks profit from the lava, as long as there is management and respect we coexsist. maybe one day there will be no cruiseships or heli tours and just guided foot tours, that would be a great improvement in my opinion.

in all my experiences on this island i have run across many a differing opinion as to how we and "others" should comport ourselves. hundreds of years ago a harsh system of "kapu' would have told us how to behave, often despotic chiefs would have dictated our lives for us. in the future a system of bureacratic ordinances and litiginous rules may define what we are allowed in expressing ourselves. As a conscious, intentional, and intellectually considerate community we decide how we want to live and affect that policy. i cherish punaweb for representing that intention and awareness. whether it's pam's generosity, carey's unbiased brilliance, or rob's fairness and activism, this is a great place for many wonderfull and diverse people to help each other and to discuss important things. i guess i'm grateful to be criticised so publicly, it allows a fair response and many to lay in good opinions. (i could lay a lot more praise on PunaWebber's, those three just popped into my head you're all great)

I would never consider liability when surfing, diving, cliff-jumping, motorcycling, hiking, eating local produce, bathing in cachement water, driving, or when willfully and knowingly setting out in a VERY DANGEROUS area where it is illegal to hike. (sorry i don't really think about the legality of hiking at the lava, i was remiss in not mentioning it before.) I like most of my community here until hampered by age or condition frequently go out to see the lava, the police know us and let us by, just not in front of the tourists. they turn a blind eye. i respect that our local police have repeatedly shown an intelligent and balanced decision making abilty when dealing with residents. sure they may rarely find stolen goods, but they allow us to police ourselves and help when we truly need them. i have over and over again been impressed by the judiciousness in their actions. i have been happy to have not met any of the bad egg cops.

Now, very important!

to any uncles and aunties who i may have offended by hiking into the lava i apologize and respectfully invite you to educate me in a more honoruable way of living with your heritage. humble and gratefull for that which the hawaiian and local cultures have already shared with me i apologize for any offence. this would be an excllent place to teach me, for in doing so many would be taught. i have always cherished the ways i have been taught by hawaiians here, whether it be how and when to make an offering, at the lava, in waipio, on the summit, or how to close a gate when hiking on private land, wave and step quietly past a lo'i, or not allow non-native seeds to hitchhike in on clothing or in food, all these lessons feel right and resonate with me.

i will continue to respect this island and nature as i have been, by being a witness and a steward and sharing it with others and allowing them to learn through that process. that, to me is how i stoke up my "lagging self esteem", by sharing knowledge, nature and experience with good people. come down to kehena sometime, or walk around seaview, attend a dance or play at kalani or belly acres, i'd be happy for us to educate each other.

i'll be the guy acting like a loveable fool, hugging everyone and saying inappropriate things.

mahalo.

hazen

[Kelena]

Thank you, Hazen and Greg for your differing viewpoints on walking out past the County approved viewing area. This is one of my favorite threads as I always want to know what the volcano is doing. I'm fascinated with it. Right now the public viewing area is not "firing" much.

Greg -- I finally realized that I know you....or at least met you briefly. I have one of your tiles in a prominent place on my patio. Loved it.

Hazen -- I need an ohana renovated. Do you do that kind of stuff?

[Greg]

Hazen,

I don't see my comments to you as a personal attack. I don't know of anyone, offhand, who is intentionally disrespectful.

I'm sure you handle yourself well in the wilds of Puna. My point is that instead of quietly making your own way to a meaningful experience, you are instead encouraging others (who you rightfully document) that may not be Eagle Scouts. You can explain all you want about good lava hiking practices but the fact remains; people are rescued regularly, and the number of rescues is proportionate to the number of illegal hikers.

The other aspect of your initial post that I criticized (Attacked?), is that more widespread violations of the agreement between the county and landowners could jeapardise the county's efforts to provide a safe accessable viewing area for the public. This would be another ufortunate case of the actions of a few..................

I believe you when you say you are well prepared, cautious, knowlegable, have zero impact, and won't sue if you break your leg. Can you vouch for the others that follow your example? At your encouragement?


It remains a fact: You can't reach the ocean entry without tresspassing on private property, and the only legal access is to have a civil defense permit, or use the County's viewing area.

In 1992, I witnessed local Hawaiians become justifiably irate at the multitude of visitors self indulgently crossing their land to access the Kalapana lava (I was helping evacuate). Is it that much different because the landowners are not currently present?

The County's viewing area is all that keeps this type of situation from happening again. That's why we shouldn't put it at risk.

Try this: Don't listen to me. Go to one of the friendly County workers at the flow area. All but two are Hawaiians, ancestraly connected to the area. Ask them what they think of you hiking to the entry after hours.

then;

Follow your own path (but please think of the consequences).




Stoneface

[Hazen]

yessir glen, feel free to give me a call at 965-8381 i'd be happy to talk about it. mahalo

hazen

[DanielP]

About 2 years ago I hiked along the coast from Kaimu to the ocean entry right after the County opened the viewing site. I was under the impression that the coast is generally open to all.

I am also under the impression that if I do not cross any barrier or fence or pass a No Trespassing sign or KAPU sign, I am not guilty of "Criminal Trespass".

Comments?

Dan

[Hazen]

To Greg in response: point by point

**I'm sure you handle yourself well in the wilds of Puna. My point is that instead of quietly making your own way to a meaningful experience, you are instead encouraging others (who you rightfully document) that may not be Eagle Scouts. You can explain all you want about good lava hiking practices but the fact remains; people are rescued regularly, and the number of rescues is proportionate to the number of illegal hikers.**

I agree entirely, more volume, more mishaps. I don't feel i encourage anyone in my personal interactions to go out to the lava who i would feel unfit for the experience. I now recognize your reactions to my first post over so publically posting info about going out to the flow. i feel that my warnings would prevent the foolhardy. Also once again, we're bound to have more drivers soon too, should we limit cars, maybe only residents can drive? Car accidents require emergency responders too. As this island's population increases we're going to have to decide if we want to be like california and regulate EVERYTHING in response to the misdeeds of a few or try something more um, sorry for sounding like a libretarian patriot, American. Community policing and policying. California is a great state where many people are protected and provided for, it has some of the most forward thinking social policies and best environmental law in the world. But just try to share a glass of wine on the beach with your lover or go a year without a parking ticket. Compromises. I err, on the side of personal responsibility over legislation. I've always liked Puna for that.

**The other aspect of your initial post that I criticized (Attacked?), is that more widespread violations of the agreement between the county and landowners could jeapardise the county's efforts to provide a safe accessable viewing area for the public. This would be another ufortunate case of the actions of a few.................. ***

Sure, maybe. Frankly half the best stuff on this island involves moving around on unmarked/possibly private property. surf spots, snorkel spots, fishing, spots, hikes, you name it. We all know how real estate has been mucked up here. technically between Shipman, HH, Bishop, and the Catholic Church we've already been shut out of most places. This doesn't even begin to address small private landowners who overall, are very reasonable. How many out there dealt with gun-toting, pit-bull leading hunters? Some of those guys are awesome, feed their families, respect the aina, share meat and help eliminate pests. Some point their gun at you and tell you they're hunting there one way or another, and you better not leave your weedwhacker unattended. Having lived in SoCal, Florida, and the Carribean i will readily admit a strong feeling of umbrage towards private landowners limiting shoreline access. there is a very important florida case before the supreme court right now. debating theses issues. i respect people's rights to privacy, but also can in no way support the developement of aprivelege class who have ocean access, and the rest who don't. i have always dreamed of building a house as close as possible to the ocean, i have thought long and hard on how one would deal with person property issues and public access. after all no one wants someone to throw a keg party in their backyard, or setup a tent and fish for six monthes right in front of your ocean view. I believe as most always these things are best handled one on one personally. respectfull communication often leads to friendship and cooperaton in lieu of a sort of shoot first attitude we've all seen from some beachfront owners on the mainland.

I for one can say that the lava fields seemed cleaner to me before the viewing area. I drive down existing roads to the ocean and hike on the coast. i've seen not a single sign or indication that i am trespassing. I'm not sure where i would be trespassing, no one has ever said anything to me. or anyone else in my hearing.


***I believe you when you say you are well prepared, cautious, knowlegable, have zero impact, and won't sue if you break your leg. Can you vouch for the others that follow your example? At your encouragement?***

Nope. But i'm not going to live in fear either. It's a slippery slope to over-regulation and sheltered children.

***It remains a fact: You can't reach the ocean entry without tresspassing on private property, and the only legal access is to have a civil defense permit, or use the County's viewing area.***

I honestly don't know where the pins on which plots are or who owns what. Until i catch wind, i'm certainly not going to make it a problem. i'm not looking to make one. One day someone puts up a gate and a sign that says kapu, tough for me i'll respect that. then only disrespectful folks will pass. ones who will break bottles and vandalize signs and gates. kids are going to go out to the flow, it's a lot easier to flow with them than against them. at least some of us will be out there to pickup bottles, help the hurt, educate, and encourage good decision making.

Where i grew up in Vermont there were these cliffs about half an hour from my town. we'd park off a rural road, walk across a field and take a very steep hike up to these amazing cliffs. we'd sit langs thousands of feet in the air and i'd smoke cigarettes (i thought it was cool), watch the peregrine falcons swoop and mate, look out across a few new england states and generally be a teenager. so many deep thoughts and values passed through me and into me there. some of my best childhood talks and memories are of those cliffs with friends, girls, nature. i liked them so much that i started taking field trips of grade schoolers up there, we'd teach them about ecology, clean up the roadsides, and marvel at nature. we did river cleanups too. little kids raging rapids, slippery rocks, and thousand foot cliffs with no railings. no one seemed to think it wa a bad idea. there was an old man who owned the field and cliffs. we walked right by his cabin. he'd wave. we didn't talk much. we were kids, too cool get down with an oldtimer. when we started doing cleanups and environmental field trips we approached him. he was happy to hear about kids being outdoorsfolk and appreciating the beauty of his land. we would stop there and he would tell the groups about the history of the land. always made everybody glow, even if it wasn't too interesting to most. kept everyone happy. Years later i went back to vermont and went to take my girlfriend up there. we'd barely made it out of our car before some crazy guy came flying down from the cabin waving a rifle at us telling us to get the F-ck off his property. needless to say we did. i went into the nearest town, turns out the old man died and some guy from another state bought the land. started yelling at everyone. guess he pissed some people off and then kids would egg his house, trash his mailbox. he started waving guns. no one liked him, but it was his property. made me deeply sad. I don't know if he flipped when the first stranger walked by his door at sunset, because of a city-dweller fear of strangers, or if he became fearfull after being unfriendly and getting like in return. doens't matter, someone threw a stone. someone built a wall. we sometimes need walls and stones in this world. i for one want as few as possible.

***In 1992, I witnessed local Hawaiians become justifiably irate at the multitude of visitors self indulgently crossing their land to access the Kalapana lava (I was helping evacuate). Is it that much different because the landowners are not currently present? ***

You know if someone walked past my burning house to lollygag and didn't offer to help i'd probably be pretty resentfull. then again if a spaceship landed in my backyard i'd sort of expect some attention. i think the best one can do is flow with it and practise aloha. this is the only readily accessible lava in the world. if this were a coral reef or a delicate ecosystem, i'd be out there standing vigil. but it's not it's molten rock, about as tough as one can get. and it flows over itself pretty regularly. i'm surprised kenoi hasn't suggested using the flow as an incineration site for trash, you know tough budgets and all. i drive across my neighor's lot all the time, no one's seen him in ten years. there's no damage done, i don't think he'd care, even if he did know.

***The County's viewing area is all that keeps this type of situation from happening again. That's why we shouldn't put it at risk.***

I don't know, i never saw any problems before the viewing area i guess i don't know why they would arise now. i wasn't here evacuating anyone in 92'. I'm sure it was quite an experience, good to help, but tragic also. No one really lives out there now, lots up people before the end of he road sure, respect them. some are friends. when i get out of my truck all i see between me and the flow is lava and moonlight. i'd hate to think i'm offending anyone, but it's not like i'm sneaking into someone's house at night, microwaving some butrritos, and watching their home videos.
Since the viewing area has been built and the cops have started policing i have seen very little of the partying and such that sed to happen out at the end of the road. I welcome the viewing area. When my parents visited i took them there, my dad has a bad back. When my friends come to visit i take them to the flow, as far as they feel safe and only if they are in a respectfull mindset. I took my parents to Akaka falls lookout, i took my younger sister to stand at the top of the falls and look over the edge. parents went down into waipio, sister and i hiked the river up to hialwe falls. when i was younger my parents took me to do theses things. now they can't, but they're sure as hell happy that i can take my sister out there. they always let people hunt on their land, just make sure the gun's never pointed in the direction of the house and be respectfull. They love seeing the deer, but know if they don't allow hunting they's see starving, disease ridden deer in mid winter. I think if you try to regulate access to this primal, natural phenomenon things will get bad. It's wonderfull that healthy sane people can go see the lava. If you blocked it off all you'd hear about was idiots who went out unprepared and never found their way back. I'll be the flashlight in the dark to the drunk kids and the screwballs in robes praying to the cosmos. When they follow our headlamps back to the road, you'll never even know the disaster averted, hopefully they'll learn a lesson. Going to the lava increases people's connection and reverence for this island. then they vote, live, and talk proactively.

***Follow your own path (but please think of the consequences). ***

I do, everytime i go out to the lava it makes me think about consequences.

I respect your opinions Greg and am happy we can discourse on this. I'd love to know more about what land is private and know any statistics about emergency responders and the lava. I know a lot more of that was available when everyone accessed through the park.

Mahalo,

Hazen