04-15-2015, 06:02 AM
quote:Nice Strawman, but the mud is generally slung because those people are behaving badly by getting in the way of Progress, and the mud would be slung, even if they were all my identical twins, or tripletts..... Your shallow pathetic attempt to equate it with mere "difference" is an epic fail.
Originally posted by dakine
After reading that, I am curious to see your justification for regular observatory staff who, on their way up to the summit area, are told to stop, wind their windows down and are then interrogated about who they are and who they work for....
Thank you for the question Tom. My post, and my tactic of posting definitions of terms that are brought to mind by the behavior of participants here, is only to highlight that behavior as it applies to PW (which I find disgusting) not to suggest that we can compare such behavior here with that of others elsewhere. And, in no way am I condoning it anywhere.
The problem you bring up is a valid one and I am sorry that anyone is caught up in it. Knowing a number of people that work on the mountain daily I am aware of the discomfort and do not have a solution other than to suggest patience. I doubt if anyone is under any threat of physical harm and would suggest a certain amount of engaging with the people doing the questioning to build a familiarity and become known and hopefully just waved through in the future. Though in truth I am not there and do not know the exact nature of the dynamic so can not say with any certainty that any suggestion I make is going to work. To go further I can see MKSS approaching the protesters and working out some way to tag vehicles that should be allowed through because of their neutrality?
As to the legality or whether or not it's ethical or moral, or any other term we want to dance around that defines a right and wrong, I am sorry for the discomfort those that are being singled out are experiencing but I would suggest that it is an unfortunate byproduct of the process.
To further explain, and as I have stated before, I do not see the TMT as the root of the problem but rather an iconic 'cause' that has allowed the underlying frustrations of the Hawaiian people to crystalize into the current protest. As such it itself, and the innocent people that are caught up in the day to day activities of the protest, have (you might say) been swept up in the heat of the moment. That is unfortunate. BTW I have no problem with and in fact a lot of awe and respect and support for the astronomy industry here, but I am in complete support of the larger issues being aired even if it is at the expense of the TMT project moving forward at this time. In a word I am very sympathetic with your position but, and here's the rub, I think it is paramount we address the issues of Hawaiian sovereignty and their land use rights before any further development anywhere goes on.
The questions of sovereignty and land use rights has been on the table for longer than most have been alive. For years upon years this question has been given lip service but not squarely confronted and as such generations of Hawaiian people have been born and raised with a promise but not the actual right to or practice of self determination. This to me is a crime that is by far bigger than the temporary disruption of the people working on the mountain or the TMT project itself. As such I am sorry that the TMT project, and the astronomy community as a whole, has been caught up in it, but from my perspective that is the fault of the State of Hawaii, not the protesters, for not having the balls to deal with the rights of the Hawaiians in the first place.
And still Tom, I think for the people on PW to not be willing to discuss these issues without throwing mud and making ugly statements about people different than themselves is in itself a very sad commentary on our community, and one that brings a lot of shame to PW. So yes I think many here lack empathy, and are bigots, as per the actual definition of the terms.
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!