05-02-2017, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by ohiagrrl
...Several people checking in were claiming no evidence exists up Mauna Kea at all, others saying that it ony dates back 10 years, others 200 years. Just saying that added scientific decoding of less visible evidence would settle the matter once and for all.
If you read the EIS and the court testimony it is clear that there is no physical evidence of any religious holy activities in Area E and that includes modern times. There are many concerns about new practices being effected (noise, dust, blocking a possible sight line, etc.) but this is all new. There's been a lot of studying to show this, so I don't understand the confusion.
Eric, I personally never said I was opposed to proper excavation with a kupuna present, I just personally would not take part.
Well I think the Kupuna would be opposed to random excavations just to search for things. When the TMT excavates it is done with an archaeologist on site or on call to deal with any signs of unnatural items.
I believe a full time native council needs to oversee events daily from now into perpetuity in any endeavor up on Mauna Kea. An native astronomer would have been ideal.
There are native Hawaiians involved in the management and daily monitoring. Did you watch the court hearings?
I hear and have heard your arguments and respect that you believe them and that you believe your personal stake on this mountain is as important if not more, than that of the Hawaiian peoples quest for self determination but even a whiff of impropriety got TMT into the jam it is in, largely due to missteps by its partners. ...if everyone believed that the new management was impecable, it would not be in court.
Let me stop you there. First off, the cultural aspect of the TMT is really something for Hawaiians to decided for themselves. I feel uncomfortable making any kind of "cultural" pronouncements or debates. Quite simply it isn't my place.
However I have Native Hawaiian friends with whom we discuss TMT and other issues often. So I'm not uninformed, however the decision really is for the Hawaiian community to work out. If the TMT fails it will be very sad for me, because I've always felt Hawaii as leading the world and I have enjoyed seeing all the kids competing internationally in robotics (and beating Universities) all due to TMT educational funding. I feel we all have something at stake here in loosing TMT, but I don't want to play a role in deciding the cultural impact of it at all.
I will however correct the record with anyone who wants to discuss it, which is why I am engaging with you on this topic. There are many outsiders (non-Hawaiian, mainlanders, etc.) who enjoy the drama of "Protecting Mauna Kea" but don't know what they are talking about.
And I don't think the small group of petitioners would agree with you at all about why they are in court. They fought against the Outrigger Program and now TMT. There is no compromise with many of them.
Community in an actual town hall with Hawaiians and not mask the smarmy confrontational attitudes behind a computer, I would pay to see it.
There's been public debates like this which you can watch on line.
...Several people checking in were claiming no evidence exists up Mauna Kea at all, others saying that it ony dates back 10 years, others 200 years. Just saying that added scientific decoding of less visible evidence would settle the matter once and for all.
If you read the EIS and the court testimony it is clear that there is no physical evidence of any religious holy activities in Area E and that includes modern times. There are many concerns about new practices being effected (noise, dust, blocking a possible sight line, etc.) but this is all new. There's been a lot of studying to show this, so I don't understand the confusion.
Eric, I personally never said I was opposed to proper excavation with a kupuna present, I just personally would not take part.
Well I think the Kupuna would be opposed to random excavations just to search for things. When the TMT excavates it is done with an archaeologist on site or on call to deal with any signs of unnatural items.
I believe a full time native council needs to oversee events daily from now into perpetuity in any endeavor up on Mauna Kea. An native astronomer would have been ideal.
There are native Hawaiians involved in the management and daily monitoring. Did you watch the court hearings?
I hear and have heard your arguments and respect that you believe them and that you believe your personal stake on this mountain is as important if not more, than that of the Hawaiian peoples quest for self determination but even a whiff of impropriety got TMT into the jam it is in, largely due to missteps by its partners. ...if everyone believed that the new management was impecable, it would not be in court.
Let me stop you there. First off, the cultural aspect of the TMT is really something for Hawaiians to decided for themselves. I feel uncomfortable making any kind of "cultural" pronouncements or debates. Quite simply it isn't my place.
However I have Native Hawaiian friends with whom we discuss TMT and other issues often. So I'm not uninformed, however the decision really is for the Hawaiian community to work out. If the TMT fails it will be very sad for me, because I've always felt Hawaii as leading the world and I have enjoyed seeing all the kids competing internationally in robotics (and beating Universities) all due to TMT educational funding. I feel we all have something at stake here in loosing TMT, but I don't want to play a role in deciding the cultural impact of it at all.
I will however correct the record with anyone who wants to discuss it, which is why I am engaging with you on this topic. There are many outsiders (non-Hawaiian, mainlanders, etc.) who enjoy the drama of "Protecting Mauna Kea" but don't know what they are talking about.
And I don't think the small group of petitioners would agree with you at all about why they are in court. They fought against the Outrigger Program and now TMT. There is no compromise with many of them.
Community in an actual town hall with Hawaiians and not mask the smarmy confrontational attitudes behind a computer, I would pay to see it.
There's been public debates like this which you can watch on line.