Pointless thread

[pahoated]

I've read responses and they are moronic.

All I am posting is about new technology.

To take that and turn it into some emotion filled bias is childish to the extreme. Using the status of an inanimate object like TMT to pass judgment on a person is ridiculous.

Of course, the telescopes in use now are very productive. TMT was for the future. Even if TMT started today, it is an eight year construction. There are technologies that are going to leap frog the capability.

The emotional status of most people on PW seems to be about 12 years old.

"Aloha also means goodbye. Aloha!"

[Obie]

“The University of Hawai#699;i remains steadfast in our support for locating the Thirty Meter Telescope in Hawai‘i. The project is a tremendous scientific and economic opportunity for Hawai#699;i Island and the state,” the statement read. “It will be a cornerstone of the next generation of astronomy in Hawai#699;i, one of the anchors of our research and innovation enterprise.

“TMT is also providing educational, scholarship and STEM support for Hawai’i Island schools and substantial resources for improved stewardship of Maunakea. UH was the original permit applicant for the project and will be deeply involved in the upcoming Land Board proceedings, as we have been throughout the process to date.”

POOF !!!

What are the protectors plans for education and how are they planning to fill this void ?

[dakine]

What are the protectors plans for education and how are they planning to fill this void ?

Right now they are deeply involved in the formation of their nation which as time goes by, I assume, will lead to answers to your questions. At the moment I believe the issues being discussed are much more fundamental. Question like which form of government they will model their new nation after.

Peter Apo wrote a lengthly column in Civil Beat that was published this morning entitled Nai Aupuni – A Nation Rising that goes into great detail about what has been happening at the ongoing Aha. With his enthusiasm about how things are unfolding I would think we may see the Hawaiians working on the matters you raise sooner rather than later. Though of course in the process of creating a nation the issues you raise are a bit down the road from where we are today.

Peter's article is here: http://www.civilbeat.com/2016/02/peter-a...on-rising/

[Guest]

The hawaii public school system May not be able to replace all the flashy TMT donated money or the golden promises of a better future, at least not right away?
Schools like Pahoa high wouldn't really have to do much, jmo. They could Try adding several more computers, a few air conditioners, an AP class or two(+teacher), they also could cut back on their over paid substitute or temporary teaching methods. These few simple difference's may help students maximize more of their learning potential, while also helping pahoa high school become a more enjoyable atmosphere for eager learning students, teachers, and once beaten up security officers, jmo.

Anyone know if any of our brightest area high school seniors got a scholarship offer this year to attend the prestigious Cal Berkeley or UCLA universities(home of the TMT project)?.

http://m.phys.org/news/2013-08-mission-w...major.html

I know its an older article but it covers the TMT telescopes once promising capabilities pretty well. Hard to imagine this TMT dinosaur being outdated quickly,jmo though.

[TomK]

"Arecibo and Australian radio telescopes have received instrumentation upgrades so they can see through the center of the galaxy to the other side and beyond, the "blind spot" which has been there in human observation for 3 million years (looking up and seeing the Milky Way obscuring what is "behind" it)."

Radio telescopes have always had the ability to "see through the center of the galaxy to the other side and beyond", however, they have poor resolution themselves unless combined as a very long baseline interferometer. They are also good at detecting complex molecules. They, can't however, measure the full electromagnetic spectrum and therefore on their own are not particularly useful these days unless combined with telescopes working at other wavelengths.

"Radio and infrared penetrate much better than optical. The era of lenses and giant mirrors is coming to an end, the TMT would have been one of the last brontosaurus."

(Quiet everyone, don't tell Ted that the TMT will be an optical/infrared telescope and quite capable of working in the infrared, and definitely don't mention it'll be using mirrors).

"It's starting to look like the demise of the Earth bound optical telescope is going to start in less than 5 years. There is no advantage to locking on to stars from a spinning reference platform. Lightweight individually magnified sensor arrays are going to be much cheaper and easier to locate in space."

But somehow orbiting telescopes aren't in a spinning reference frame?

As for this claim about "Lightweight individually magnified sensor arrays", I've already addressed that in another thread and they cannot replace the capabilities of ground based telescopes, a response I assume Ted thinks "moronic" yet won't explain why.

http://www.punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21905&whichpage=3

"Not sure what this has to do with proposed 9th planet, but the technology Lockheed Martin are developing is aimed at relatively small imaging telescopes used to take images of the Earth (not something ground-based telescopes do anyway), and, as the article says, other planets. If you want the resolving and light collecting power of a 30-meter telescope, you would still need to launch a 30-meter diameter telescope into space which has the optical precision of a ground-based telescope. That technology is decades away."

"Also, since much of the work that ground-based telescopes do is spectroscopy, and since spectral information is lost in the process of forming interference fringes, then I hardly see how this will make ground-based telescopes become obsolete."

"TMT has to make a decision in two years whether it wants to keep fighting or find a new location, or go obsolete in the 8 years it will take to build it."

This is nonsense as usual. It will not go obsolete for decades, the same for the GMT and the ELT. Anything that makes the TMT obsolete is unlikely to come around in our lifetimes. Having it move from Hawaii, however, will mean its capabilities won't be exploited to their limits.

[TomK]

"What are the protectors plans for education and how are they planning to fill this void ?"

I think I can summarize dakine's response. No, there is no plan.

[TomK]

"Jesus, Ted, give it a rest. [...]"

Mike - if you ever watch Nova, I can guarantee there are scientists working in the field a particular episode is about tearing their hair out. The program is still excellent as long as you understand there are some liberties being taken to make it presentable. But when you watch an episode that you have little expertise in, you know you have to take some of the stuff with a pinch of salt, because it can't just be in your field they get things wrong.

I used to treat Ted the same way, he had things to say which showed he didn't understand things but had some vague idea what he was talking about, but no longer. Now he pretends to be expert on all sorts of subjects and it's clear he isn't, and when he's questioned, just resorts to insults rather than explanations. And although he may occasionally read responses, he is certainly unable to answer them. Sometimes it feels as if you're having a conversation with a five-year-old.

However, there are things he posts that some might believe, even if they are utter nonsense, and someone has to point out the inaccuracies before people accept them as the truth.

[VancouverIslander]

TomK: there was an interview on CBC Radio's (I think it was "Ideas") with a young scientist who said that her field was so full of jargon that nobody from outside the field could really understand much of what was said at symposiums and when planning to attend she would carefully read the description for jargon if it was outside her immediate area of expertise to make sure it wasn't full of jargon she didn't understand to avoid wasting time. Bob McDonald from "Quirks and Quarks", another CBC radio show that had originally been hosted by David Suzuki, was on the news yesterday trying to explain gravity waves to the audience with a salad bowl covered with a T-shirt. My wife said "Oh, I think I see what he's trying to get at" and I told her it gives us a model but the model is not the gravity wave, but it conveys some of the ideas in a way non-experts can visualize and understand. And this is a concept in Physics that's 101 years old.

Just call me Mike

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

go obsolete in the 8 years it will take to build it.

I think ted has an incomplete idea of what defines obsolescence in science and technology.

For instance, it's often said the average smart phone has more capability than the Apollo spacecraft computers that flew to the moon. Technically this may be true as defined in bits, bytes, ram, and software. But we managed to get to the moon and back with "obsolete" 1960's computing power, made great discoveries, and returned with moon rocks, photos, video, and more. What do we accomplish with the latest smartphone technology in 2016? Go to Prince Kuhio Mall and see. You'll find kids texting their friends to decide what they want to do first, eat a 900 calorie dessert roll, or check out a movie.

Then there is the "obsolete" equipment on the Pluto Horizon mission. Years to plan and develop, then nine years to fly to Pluto. Everything on-board was completely outdated by the time it arrived. But here's the catch, if we launched the latest equipment today, it too would be "obsolete" by the time it arrived. By the logic of ted, we would never begin a mission, because better equipment is always right around the corner.

The same could be said for buying a car. Why buy one this year? Next year's models will be so much better.

Even beyond the technology, the observatories depend on a team of professionals who work together day after day, year after year, even decade after decade. They become proficient with their equipment, know it's capabilities, and understand their role working with that technology and other members of the team. That's why they specialize. That's why what they accomplish doesn't depend only on a brand new lens or mirror and why new technology won't replace what we already have... overnight.


"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives." -Annie Dillard

[dmbwest]

don't chase technology because you will never catch it

aloha,
pog