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Mike - I really understand that young scientist's opinion. I don't often get the opportunity to attend general astronomy conferences, but when I do I'll often step into one of the cosmology sessions and listen to the talks. The observational seminars are fine as I've worked with enough observational cosmologists to understand their talks, but then the theoretical presentations start and usually have to leave as I feel a migraine coming on!
HOTPE - in addition to your post, which I thought was spot on, what really makes a telescope productive is the instrumentation. Typically, an astronomical instrument has a ten-year lifetime, although some can remain ahead of the game for much longer, but the point is upgrading the instrumentation keeps a telescope competitive. And even if that instrument becomes dated but it's unique, a relatively simple and quick upgrade of its detectors opens up whole new fields of research that other observatories can't do. It's why some of the older observatories on Mauna Kea are still the most scientifically productive on the planet.
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Apparently I wasn't the only one to have this idea: simply have the Feds nationalize Mauna Kea as a national monument. State loves to play the "pre-empted by Federal law" card...
http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/comm...ebruary-13
As to "what about the TMT", well, the Feds can simply enact monument status retroactively to a time when TMT's permits were still valid, or else the ruling can just be thrown out (since it's merely the State).
In any case, the Protectors and their legal team would probably have a more difficult time arguing their case with the Feds.
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quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
I think ted has an incomplete idea of what defines obsolescence in science and technology.
At least you said "I think", which is an opinion. I think you have placed so much energy into fueling a petty grudge that you are no longer able to discuss topics rationally. Emotion can be so blinding.
The observatories know they go obsolete. The astronomers that have given public presentations include the topic in their talks.
The science is called Life Cycle Logistics Management. Learn a little more about it here:
http://www.logisticsymposium.org/papercl...820a80.pdf
The observatories have to invest quite a bit of time and money in life cycle logistics management. They have to provide mitigation efforts in their proposals.
http://www.malamamaunakea.org/uploads/ma...n_2010.pdf
It is hilarious, for all the study in life cycle logistics management, the final application is the same as it has been for thousands of years: Put the system out to pasture.
Some examples of obsolescence or in logistics, End of Life Cycle. They start out being called 'reserves', backup, mothball, then after a long enough time, they are called 'toxic waste dumps':
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/wwfeatures/1600_...26vj8m.jpg
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image...ncisco.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7341/15938...27c6_b.jpg
http://astronomynow.com/wp-content/uploa...40x484.jpg
https://wasteline.files.wordpress.com/20...puters.jpg
And where obsolete consumer electronics end up, the real face of 'recycling', put into containers in Hawaii, shipped to Ghana:
http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/tech/slideshow/2014/03/06/in-pictures-ghanas-e-waste-disaster/_jcr_content/slideshow-par/slide_image/image.img.jpg/876/493/1422667618145.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
https://manoa.hawaii.edu/news/attachment..._2454l.jpg
"Aloha also means goodbye. Aloha!"
*Japanese tourist on bus through Pahoa, "Is this still America?*
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Some days, visiting Punaweb feels a little like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhBPuG-qmDI
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Funny link in context, Lodestone!
Problem is everyone thinks they are Clarise. 
Cheers,
Kirt
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Good to know observatories don't obsolesce.
(So why do we need another one?....)
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quote:
Originally posted by kalakoa
Apparently I wasn't the only one to have this idea: simply have the Feds nationalize Mauna Kea as a national monument. State loves to play the "pre-empted by Federal law" card...
http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/comm...ebruary-13
As to "what about the TMT", well, the Feds can simply enact monument status retroactively to a time when TMT's permits were still valid, or else the ruling can just be thrown out (since it's merely the State).
In any case, the Protectors and their legal team would probably have a more difficult time arguing their case with the Feds.
There is major problem with this argument though. The TMT project would have to do a Section 106 consultation with the Native Hawaiians, and redo their FEIS to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act, if Mauna Kea was Federalized. In addition, there is no time to start over the process again. The TMT has stated they need to have finalized permits by September 2017, or they will be looking elsewhere for prospective sites.
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Put the system out to pasture.
...
Good to know observatories don't obsolesce.
Please Note: There will be a test after this post.
Observatories can become obsolete. However, they do not become obsolete the precise moment every new technology is discovered which may or may not be capable of replacing old technology.
New technology takes time to test, plan, design, then implement and construct. While this is occurring, existing technology is the best we have, and is not obsolete. Designs that are shovel ready are probably a decade or more ahead of any possible construction for potential new technologies. Even if shovel ready telescopes are delayed a few years, it is still worth it to proceed with construction, because the next generation observatory could just as easily be delayed for a few years too. And then we would have a decade long gap in our ability to pursue cutting edge research.
Space observatories and rockets to get them there are expensive. Space observatories will have much smaller lenses than earth based observatories for the foreseeable future. The price per pound to get a telescope into space is millions of dollars per pound. The price will come down, but no one knows how soon or how much, so nothing of any size can be planned for launch until we reach a specific unknown cost point.
Again, technology can become obsolete, but not in the way it has been suggested by some on Punaweb.
Question #1. Can technology become obsolete?*
Question #2. Can we replace terrestrial telescopes with space telescopes based on unknown factors ranging from size limitations to weight limitations, to completely unknown costs for launch into orbit?**
* Yes
** Not at this time.
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives." -Annie Dillard
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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** Not at this time***
*** In HOTPE's opinion
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*** In HOTPE's opinion
The next visual range space based telescope scheduled for launch is the James Webb Space Telescope. It will be a world class observatory, but planning started 20 years ago, and it won't be launched for another 2 years.
In gestation since 1996...
The JWST has a history of major cost overruns and delays. The first realistic budget estimates were that the observatory would cost $1.6 billion and launch in 2011. NASA has now scheduled the telescope for a 2018 launch. In 2011, the United States House of Representatives voted to terminate funding, after about $3 billion had been spent and 75% of its hardware was in production.[9] Funding was restored in compromise legislation with the US Senate, and spending on the program was capped at $8 billion.[10] As of December 2014, the telescope remained on schedule and within budget, but at risk of further delays.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb..._Telescope
Does this give anyone the impression that space based telescopes are ready for prime time? That we are at a point where we can bring a halt to construction of terrestrial observatories?
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives." -Annie Dillard
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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