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Sometimes environmentalists can go a little too far by not realizing the impact their wishes may bring in the future. For example, environmentalist groups screamed and hollered that logging was killing habitat and environment, so the guv caved in and banned logging. Weather change brought weakness to the pines and bark beetle took hold, killing thousands of pine trees resulting in the massive wildfires California is having as the forest could not be thinned of dead trees.
One must be very careful in what they wish for, for the benefit of all.
Community begins with Aloha
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"But we will go with environmentalists; I think we all understand the meaning here.
Tom: "The idea that environmentalists are behind the TMT protests is so ridiculous that it really doesn't deserve any more comment. "
No, environmentalists are not "behind" the protests, but they seem to be equal participants."
I don't understand your meaning and other than some nonsense from some fringe groups I don't see any evidence that environmentalists are leading the TMT protests. The subject of this thread is about environmentalists being a big force behind the TMT protests, but having experienced the protests first-hand I really have no idea how you came up with this hypothesis. Please provide some evidence. Thanks.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
I don't understand your meaning and other than some nonsense from some fringe groups I don't see any evidence that environmentalists are leading the TMT protests. The subject of this thread is about environmentalists being a big force behind the TMT protests, but having experienced the protests first-hand I really have no idea how you came up with this hypothesis. Please provide some evidence. Thanks.
I too would argue against using the term environmentalist in this context - I'm an environmentalist, and constantly advocate for minimizing the damage humans do to the planet. I think a better term to use is "obstructionist" - those who seem intent on obstructing any and every high profile project regardless of whether it might reduce human's global environmental impact (while modestly increasing local impacts - i.e. NIMBYs - e.g. Hu Honua, or the development of a timber industry in Hawaii and opposed planting of trees on old sugar land) or bring new knowledge into the community.
But there are no small number of obstructionists who are members of environmental groups - that gives them a good cover story... Tom, you asked for names - try Nelson Ho or Deborah Ward - both outspoken members of the Big Island chapter of the Sierra Club - and both ardently opposed to TMT - and a host of other projects in the past. I believe one or both have advocated for the removal of all telescopes from the Mauna Kea summit. Given that the State political establishment has become very sympathetic to the preservation of Hawaiian culture, this provides another good cover story for the obstructionist faction. I wouldn't argue that the TMT Hawaiian Culture protests are being scripted by the Sierra Club, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a good deal of encouragement...
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"But there are no small number of obstructionists who are members of environmental groups - that gives them a good cover story... Tom, you asked for names - try Nelson Ho or Deborah Ward - both outspoken members of the Big Island chapter of the Sierra Club - and both ardently opposed to TMT - and a host of other projects in the past."
Excellent point, geochem, and completely agree with this and the rest of your post.
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geochem: "I too would argue against using the term environmentalist in this context - I'm an environmentalist, and constantly advocate for minimizing the damage humans do to the planet. I think a better term to use is "obstructionist"
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Your post is well stated, geochem, significantly better than I put it. Answers Tom's and glinda's questions, I think. (I had Nelson Ho and Deborah Ward in mind, but could not recall their names).
There are several types of obstructionists. A NIMBY with no particular environmentalist bent might opportunistically demand environmental reviews to derail a project. Safety concerns and some types of county/state permitting act as obstructing factors for non-environmental reasons.
Various types of obstructionism acting in concert equal very potent obstructionism.
Environmental obstructionists? A cumbersome term. Environmental extremists?
Environmentalists' constraints on projects/development in the U.S. often do not come from overt protest. It mostly comes through policy that they helped enact decades ago, such as the National Environmental Policy Act. Expensive, time consuming environmental reviews are mandated for all sorts of development. I imagine that if another asbestos-containing building on Banyan Drive has to be torn done, environmental policy will--once again--call for a $1 million environmental assessment, even if the site and building conditions are known to be identical to Uncle Billy's.
Trump has been trying to roll back many environmental regs. I imagine even moderate environmentalists favor retaining existing policy. Just to be safe....
Are environmentalists who drive fancy, expensive cars hypocrites?
No, that would be a gross overstatement. But global warming, arguably the top threat to humanity, is heavily related to Earth's 7.5 billion people--forecast to rise to 9.8 billion in 2050--all desiring the same material culture we enjoy in the U.S. Big houses. Fancy cars. Jet skis. Boats. Yearly vacations to Europe. Conspicuous consumption. People who elect to live frugally in tall apartment buildings (much less environmentally demanding than single family homes) and have no car, riding the bus, are doing their part to help the environment.
A persistent environmental obstructionist with a $60 K car, an expensive house and yearly ski vacations to Aspen. I call that bad form.
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So Mark, are you still holding on to your original...
"The media have portrayed native Hawaiians as the major force trying to block TMT, but I bet it is environmentalists."
Or have they been whittled down to something a little less consequential?
After all, if the hordes of "environmentalists" boils down to Deborah and Nelson, both of which we haven't seen pounding drums or blocking roads, and, god forbid, rolling rocks around, it's hard to imagine them as a major component in what is (seemingly) a Hawaiian concern. Or am I missing something?
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Glinda: "Or have they been whittled down to something a little less consequential?"
OK, I'll retract my original "environmentalists...the major force" statement. I still consider environmentalists (obstructionists) a significant force in the TMT opposition, and environmentalism gets further weight in the TMT debate when native Hawaiians use it as a tool to boost cultural infringement arguments.
Native Hawaiians certainly have deeply felt environmental concerns--probably more so than the average mainland arrival--but arguments such as the destruction of Wekiu bug habitat are, to the extent that argument comes from native Hawaiians, somewhat contrived, IMO.
This 2015 Smithsonian article notes the collaboration between the two groups:
"As OHA Trustee Peter Apo points out, Hawaiians are joined by ecological and environmental watchdog constituencies with natural resource management concerns about stewardship issues in the state’s management of the geo-cultural landscape of plants, native birds, rare insects, historic sites, and so forth."
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsoni...180955057/
The pigs that Hawaiians originally brought to the islands, now multiplied, do far more ecosystem damage than will construction of TMT. Native Hawaiians largely oppose feral pig control. This opposition raises questions about fidelity to environmentalism.
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This opposition raises questions about fidelity to environmentalism.
"Environmentalism" is really a code word for "money", and pigs don't have any money.
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A new commentary in Civil Beat on the opposition to TMT. Excerpt:
"...it’s worth pointing out to Hawaii taxpayers that attempts to build the TMT will cost much more than the $1.4 billion we keep hearing. That project will bleed money, just like the Honolulu rail, only worse. The TMT Corp won’t be digging any ordinary hole in that mountain. There will be, in astronomy’s vernacular, a black hole.
Why?
The most obvious expense will be a militarized police force sent to arrest hundreds, maybe thousands of Hawaiians spread out over many months, possibly years. Then there’s the cost to process and incarcerate a steady flow of Hawaiians who will make every inch of that project a miserable venture by blocking it physically, even if we have to do so at the pointy end of a gun...."
https://www.civilbeat.org/2018/11/there-...PhxzE2fr_Q
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Too bad we can't get those thousands of Hawaiians to march on Hawaiian Homelands and occupy their land (land that rightfully should be in the hands of native Hawaiians now.)
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The opinion column writer for the Civil Beat article is:
Anne Keala Kelly is the award winning filmmaker of “Noho Hewa: The Wrongful Occupation of Hawai‘i,”
Reading the entire piece gives the impression of wishful thinking and last gasp desperation. The death rattle of protests over the TMT. Nothing else they tried has worked. Some of them invented an imaginary past which never occurred on Mauna Kea for legal filings and hearings, or fanciful, inventive military connections, nonexistent environmental concerns - - so now, all that’s left is to frighten the taxpayers.
I don’t doubt there may be some final protests, but I do doubt they will be on the scale she suggests in her opinion piece, over the length of time she speculates.
The first load of people breaking the law (which, reminder, are laws they claim they wish to protect), will probably be the last. IF - - they are arrested, jailed, charged, bailed, and ordered to make a court appearance. Just as if they had taken a photo of the lava flow in lower Puna as it occurred last summer.
"I want great climate, we’re going to have that.” President Donald J. Trump, while viewing the massive wildfire devastation 11/17/18. (The J stands for Jenius)
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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