One more observatory in addition to TMT?

[DaVinci]

What would a military observatory do, exactly? Military grade astronomy? An "eye in the sky" would be perhaps, one of the thousands of satellites orbiting the globe. Looking down, one would presume. How would "looking up" from Haleakala aid our military? I'm genuinely curious. Maybe tracking a missile trajectory? Anything else? Does anybody here know? Just curious.

BTW, Tom took me up to UKIRT once for a tour. No double doors there. Didn't look like much security at Keck either, although we didn't actually go inside. Didn't seem like much of a military detail up there. You would think, with the dozens of tourists streaming out of tour buses and roaming around willy nilly, taking photos of whatever catches their fancy, that if the military were involved up there they'd maybe frown on that, yeah?

[TomK]

Thanks for the clarification, Opihikao. Again, I can assure you there is no military involvement in any of the Mauna Kea observatories. It's different on Haleakala, the US Air Force have observatories there, but definitely not the case on MK. In fact, it would be problematic. For instance, all the observatories have non-US citizens working for them, and secondly, China is now a partner in a number of the observatories (including the TMT). I doubt that would be the case if the US military were involved.

I'm aware of the rumors, but that's all they are. It's why I'm just a tad sensitive when these claims come up, because they are so wrong.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

AMOS is one of the military sites on Haleakala, affiliated with the Air Force. They track satellites, space debris, and space craft in earth orbit. Back in the 1980's they were a test site for the Star Wars laser program.

[opihikao]

quote:

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Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge

There are at least two military observatories on Haleakala. The are both high security & dedicated facilities, that is they do not share operations or time with university researchers. I don't know for certain, but I would doubt very much the military would share resources on Mauna Kea with any of the observatories here.

The Haleakala facilities have bank vault, double entrance doors ( you enter, the door behind you locks, the one in front of you remains locked until you've cleared security), and armed guards at the desk. Tom probably knows if there is anything like that on a Mauna Kea.

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This is truth. Mahalo, HOTPE.

ETA: I understand, Mr. Tom, about rumors. However, when they come from Washington D.C., and then, Honolulu, it holds more weight than the "local street talk" on island, Sir. Again, JMO.

[TomK]

"BTW, Tom took me up to UKIRT once for a tour. No double doors there. Didn't look like much security at Keck either, although we didn't actually go inside."

DaVinci - so you don't remember me frisking you at gunpoint before entering the building? [] Seriously, you and the entire tour group were free to take photos everywhere inside UKIRT's dome plus the JCMT. You saw the place operate and the people that worked there. Definitely not a military operation.

As for the Air Force observatories, I think HOTPE is accurate. Although I don't know for certain, it's likely they track military and spy satellites launched by other countries not always friendly to the US. Because these satellites are in low Earth orbit (interaction with the edge of our atmosphere and complicated gravitation effects change the orbits on a very short timescale) plus their orbits can be changed under control, they likely need constant tracking from specialist ground-based telescopes.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Exactly Tom, AMOS maintained contact with objects on a minute by minute basis, both in equatorial as well as polar orbits. The equipment was in use 24/7. It would be pretty difficult for a military surveillance crew to walk into a publicly funded observatory, aim the telescope at an undisclosed location, and make short term observations of any value. As the 'scopes are all electronically operated, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult for someone to come in afterward and determine what settings had been used, and from that figure out what was observed. The military requires far more security than that,
.

[TomK]

"It would be pretty difficult for a military surveillance crew to walk into a publicly funded observatory, aim the telescope at an undisclosed location, and make short term observations of any value."

Even if they could, I'm sure I'd soon get a phone call from them. "Don't suppose you could tell us how to run up the telescope control software? Oh, and how do we open the dome?"

[TomK]

Sorry, Opihikao, but when it comes to rumors...

"However, when they come from Washington D.C., and then, Honolulu, it holds more weight than the "local street talk" on island, Sir. Again, JMO."

...I would like to know what rumors you are referring to. Otherwise, it's just, ahem, a rumor.

[TomK]

PT,

"The plan now is decommission 3 observatories and they will be taken down to the pad level. Then 3 more state of the art will go in place of those. Also, Keck will have several more smaller ones around it on its allotted space. There will be no more new pad spaces after TMT."

You are really making a caricature of yourself. There is no current plan to decommission three observatories, build three more observatories in their place, and the outriggers for the Keck were prevented from being built many years ago. I really have no idea why you feel obliged to post so much made-up nonsense. It has to be pathological.

Pad spaces?

[Guest]

Great topic and discussion(Hawaiian telescope), worthy of consideration.
Let's do a little math here, if we could?. Maunakea is the absolute best place in the pacific or world to put this 1.4 billion dollar thirty meter telescope. Canada and Japan who claim financial problems can somehow afford the millions to build this scope afar. Answers to questions not even thought of let alone asked yet, will come from this incredible telescope. Yet no military is even the slightest bit interested? Really?
The great U.S. of A. Knew where the Russians were land or sea decades ago by the use of radio observatories. They figured out how to utilize the large mass of the moon to catch, receive, bounce and redirect enough radio pulses to give a soviet location on earth. If we can do this with light who knows the future possibilities, this TMT observatory may also be able to catch the famous and elusive ghost particles traveling around the universe? Military shouldn't be interested or involved in a 1.4 billion dollar project in the great pacific region? Could This TMT telescope have the capability or technologies to be ran or worked from other locations, like neutral canada,Or a large ship in the middle of the pacific?

Concern here.
Maunakea or the TMT Being the eye in the sky for the world may come with added responsibilities, or worse added risks or dangers of becoming a future target to disrupt? If this telescope can peak back in time to the big bang, could it be possible to see the last light given from a plane that crashes in remote areas on earth? Or trace light from fired missiles or underground nuclear tests in north Korea, or Iran? If not then we have not sent enough space junk into space or on the moon yet, jmo.