Here is a Brave Man Local News Article

[rbbyrd]

quote:

---

I'm confident that military justice will make an example of his behavior.

Aloha
Richwhiteboy

“Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory.” -
General George S. Patton

---

And I hope that military justice would see fit to levy a penalty/sentence that includes groundskeeper duties at the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific.

RB Byrd
Flower Mound, Tx
USAF 1974-78

[Kelena]

There are different kinds of bravery. There is the bravery of a soldier throwing himself onto grenade to save the life of three other soldiers, and the moral courage of a Martin Luther King, a Mahatma Ghandi, or a Lieutenant Watada who stand up and tell us “We are on the wrong path and I am willing to risk my personal comfort and perhaps even my life to tell you.” Yes, a soldier must follow orders. But no soldier must follow an illegal order.

The Nuremberg trials did not accept “I was just following orders” as a defense. The Nuremberg Trials lead to the Geneva Conventions, which we helped to draft and which we signed onto. Our prosecution of the Iraq war has been in gross violation of the Geneva Conventions. Who will ever forget the spectacle and shame of pictures of U.S. soldiers piling the naked bodies of prisoners in a pyramid, of the masked man with electrodes attached to him. Who can ever forget that we have cast over a thousand people into Guantanamo and only charged 10 of them with crimes. And let us not mention the few roque soldiers who raped and murdered little girls. Our soldiers in World War II were never so monstrous.

We were told we were going into Iraq because Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie, completely unsupported by American intelligence. We were told Saddam was a threat to us. He wasn't. Saddam, as odious as he was, supported a SECULAR anti-muslim-fanatic regime more akin to Western society than hi neighbors. Saddam is now dead. He died in a humiliating execution attended by Muslim fanatics (Shias) who screamed insults at him, gleeful that their brand of religious fanaticism is supported by the American Government which, once it started a civil war, had to choose sides. We have chosen the side of the religious fanatics (The Shia) who return Iraq to the stone age.

When we went into Iraq, we opened the gates of hell. We took a SECULAR government where women were allowed to wear whatever they wanted, where little girls could go to school and we turned it over to Muslim religious fanatics. We started a civil war that threatens to pull in Iran, Syria, and even Saudi Arabia.

They said that would greet us as liberators. They did not greet us as liberators and they never will.

The war was based on assertions we know now to be utterly false. The Iraqi Civil War has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. The so called “Insurgents” who are secular Iraqis defending an anti-religious fanatic way of life had nothing to do with 9/11.
If Saddam was a threat, he is dead now. More Americans have been killed in Iraq than were killed on 9/11. The war has gone on LONGER than World War II, but is not nearly as noble. The war cost several billion A MONTH. New Orleans still doesn’t have a levee (Amsterdam is below sea level, too, and they manage just fine, because the country cares). You could build a levee in New Orleans for the cost of one month of war in Iraq. You could create the best police force in the world in New Orleans for the cost of 4 days of war in Iraq. You could buy a house for every man, woman and child on the Gulf Coast of Missisippi for the cost of 6 months in Iraq.

The American public does not support this war and it has dawned on them that they were lied to about everything in connection with this war. The President’s most embarrassing, trembling, deer-in-the-headlights, fearful, bullheaded recent speech did nothing to change our minds.

It would be folly to send another American soldier to this illegal war. Lt. Watada is not obliged to go to an illegal war. I respect the views of those to the contrary, but we learned in World War II that we need not respect every soldier who “just follows orders” and that we may even prosecute them, once we learn the full extent of the horror.

Perhaps Lieutenant Watada should be sent to tend the graves of those who died in the Iraq. At night, on the wind, I am almost certain he would hear them whisper: "I don't know what I died for, and neither do you."

[Brad W]

Well done Glen. Lots to consider.

I was thinking about mella earlier, and wondering if she felt a little bit torpedoed by those of us who don't support Watada. I feel bad about that.

But, I just don't get the position that opposition to the war equals support for Watada. Watada is not in a national policy making position, has never been, will never be. I didn't support this war from the getgo, knew we'd screw it up, anticipated a civil war (you can ask my wife), and pretty much hate how it's all turned out. However, like everyone else with a heartbeat, I'd do just anything to support my troops. They are my brothers and sisters. Watada did nothing to support his guys, in fact he abandoned them in the 11th hour. The US of A cannot afford a military wherein line personnel take it upon themselves to decide when and where it is appropriat for them as individuals to deploy.

Other than that, I agree with everything you wrote. Aloha.

[oink]

The Lieutenant’s order was not illegal. The Geneva Conventions were instituted long before WW2. They were revised in 1949. While some Americans have committed violations of the Geneva Conventions, the war itself is not. Individual violators are being punished for their violations and they do not represent the actions of our troops in general. As for the guests in Guantanamo, what would you have us so with those people. They wish to do us harm but may not have violated applicable criminal statutes of American law. They are not American citizens and committed their acts in a hostile foreign country, the overthrown government of which is still hostile and warring with us. Some of our soldiers in WW2 did commit atrocities. My recently deceased, and highly decorated WW2 ver father was a witness and even prevented one with a threat of death toward American soldiers to prevent it. He later regretted that intervention, rationalizing that under the circumstances present, his potential action against the American soldiers would have been the greater offence. The rationalization of going into Iraq for WMD was clearly incorrect. I do not believe it was a lie and there was intelligence to support it. Saddam's past history clearly shows that he would have acquired them if he could have. Iraq was a secular society, but not at all akin to a western democracy. He deserved a humiliating death and I can't blame the Shia for their glee. I would prefer Iraq in the stone age than as they were. That would have been my preference from the start but I believe the neutron bomb would have been politically unacceptable. We certainly should pick sides. The Sunni were a minority that thru Saddam's leadership brutally dominated the Shia, and Kurds. We should encourage tolerance by the Shia, but expect the release of some suppressed anger. The Sunni need to be humble and show that they can become a minority that wants to live in harmony with others rather than dominate them. Many Shia and Kurds did welcome us as liberators. They have become impatient with our incompetent attempts to force our western style government on them and our tolerance for their former oppresors. When we went into Iraq, we overthrew the secular devil of a hell that gassed it's own citizens and murdered dissidents indiscriminately. A civil war may result. We must influence that war if it's unavoidable, and assure that the victors are of our choosing and we must limit the influence of Iraq’s radical neighbors. The so-called insurgents, are not seculars defending against religious fanaticism. They are Sunni fighting Shia for religious and ethnic reasons as well as terrorists who are opportunists who have come to Iraq to thwart our goals. Iraq war about four years. WW2 started in 1931, 37, or 39. You pick. It ended in 1945. The was is expensive and lots of other stuff could be done with the money. But it wouldn't be. New Orleans is a bad investment for geological reasons but it's politically incorrect to admit that. The social issues in that city would require a huge police occupation that would last far longer than the war in Iraq. The crimes committed by Saddam and his supporters should have resulted in the outrage that resulted in the world’s involvement in Bosnia. I don't understand why it didn't. There were plenty of reasons to overthrow Saddam. It is unfortunate that we chose the incorrect reason. We must try to finish that challenge or find ourselves facing a much larger one. I personally don't think there is one Iraqi worth one good American. Unfortunately I don't think nuking the region is acceptable in this current political climate and would probably violate the Geneva Conventions. I do fear that they countries in the region will eventually succeed in nuking themselves at some point in the future. The Lt. is a coward. I could respect him if he followed his orders and then after completing his tour, expressed his views. To associate our soldiers with Nazi war criminals as you have done is despicable.

Edit: In the chance that the references to nuking are not taken for the obvious (I would think)sarcasm they are. Take note that they are. I tried to avoid this topic and had hoped that it would be closed as I don't see the Puna reference. Of course, it is not my forum and I respect Robs management decisions.
It is nearly impossible to personally offend me, and is impossible in this type of forum. However, I do take offence to our troops who are doing their duty being catagorized with nazis. I will not revisit this topic.

S. FL Islander to be

Edited by - oink on 01/14/2007 20:34:39

Edited by - oink on 01/15/2007 18:20:34

[waynesb]

"Unfortunately I don't think nuking the region is acceptable in this current political climate"

Despicable is in the eye of the beholder.


Edited by - waynesb on 01/15/2007 08:59:54

[Beachboy]

quote:

---

Brave? This guy is a coward. Hello, this is a voluntary Army. This guy joined he wasn’t drafted. Plus, he’s a commissioned officer. Brave are the sons and daughters that are deployed. This officer (Soon not) is a disgrace to the to them and the uniform.
What did he think he was joining the Boy Scouts? As a soldier you take orders without question. Any Marines out there?
How can you sympathize with anyone who disobeys orders?
The only good thing this guy did was show his true colors now and not on the battlefield. I say lock him up and throw away the key.
Hope he likes Kansas this time of year because that’s where he’s going, Leavenworth! You can send your letters of support there.

---

All volunteer army is all that needs to be said!

[Jared I]

Glenn: At night, on the wind, I am almost certain he would hear them whisper: "I don't know what I died for, and neither do you."

Almost poetic Glenn. Do you see and hear dead people?

G: If Saddam was a threat...

Well Glenn I guess he was a threat to the Kurds, Iranians and the people he killed on a whim.

G: More Americans have been killed in Iraq than were killed on 9/11.

Well, how many marines and soldiers were killed in just days trying to take a unhospitable pacific island compared to those killed in Pearl Harbor?

G: You could create the best police force in the world in New Orleans for the cost of 4 days of war in Iraq.

Policing is about the society, not about force. Germany had a great police force from about 1932-45. This is what makes the crimes in amish country so stark.

G: We took a SECULAR government where women ... We started a civil war that threatens to pull in Iran, Syria, and even Saudi Arabia.

I would say Iraq was despotic, much different than secular. The current divisions in the middle east go much further back to the WWI, I think we should blame the French, British and Wilson.

G: We were told we were going into Iraq because Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie, completely unsupported by American intelligence.

I think the French, English and Isrealis pretty much had the same intel.

G: Saddam, as odious as he was, supported a SECULAR anti-muslim-fanatic regime more akin to Western society than hi neighbors.

Saddam supported himself and his Sunni brothers. Again despotic, not secular. Saddam chose a secular style not the people, because he like smokes, sex and liquor. So by your statement, if you are more western, kill as many of your citizens as you want.

G: He died in a humiliating execution attended by Muslim fanatics (Shias) who screamed insults at him...

He was executed by Iraq's govt, not by the US military like in Germany. What do you think the jews would have done to the Nuremberg participants? The dead care nothing of humiliation, they are dead. What about the women raped, tortured and killed in front of their husbands by Saddam's sons and forces, what of their humiliation and shame? Does position determine your shame?

G: gleeful that their brand of religious fanaticism is supported by the American Government which, once it started a civil war, had to choose sides. We have chosen the side of the religious fanatics (The Shia) who return Iraq to the stone age.

Actually the Shia are the predominate group in Iraq (the Kurds more so in the north), so why shouldn't they have a say in their govt. Maybe we should tell them how to act. An who are you calling fanatics, maybe you aren't fanatical enough? Iran is shia, oh yeah they'll have nukes soon, so much for stone age argument.

G: The Nuremberg trials did not accept “I was just following orders” as a defense. The Nuremberg Trials lead to the Geneva Conventions, which we helped to draft and which we signed onto.

Actually you are quite wrong. The allies prosecuted very few of the many participants of atrocities and of those judged a short prison time was much more common than the death sentence. During de-nazi-fication is was seen how impossible the task would be, all in all we hope the shame of the matters would hang around the preps head for life. The Geneva Conventions were around since 1864, and adopted over time by countries. I think what you are refering to is the Nerumberg Principals later adopted by the UN around 1949. The US actually had reservations and declarations to the Geneva Convention.

G: Our prosecution of the Iraq war has been in gross violation of the Geneva Conventions. Who will ever forget the spectacle and shame of pictures of U.S. soldiers piling the naked bodies of prisoners in a pyramid, of the masked man with electrodes attached to him.

Why havent we been tossed out of the UN, if we are so henious? Actually the US has charged soldiers involved in these crimes. Crimes happen, opps one happened in Puna clear out neighborhoods. Do you damn the group for the actions of an individual???

G: And let us not mention the few roque soldiers who raped and murdered little girls.

By far not the standard of american service men and this group is being tried. All war has atrocities.

G: Our soldiers in World War II were never so monstrous.

Wrong. There were actions like this that did happen, check army archives, these crimes just werent public on TV/radio/internet. A bad blanket statement.

G: But no soldier must follow an illegal order.

What illegal order was Watada given? Show up we are going to Iraq? Believe it or not you as a soldier can be sent on a suicide mission for nothing more than being a probe of enemy defenses and its a legal order. If Watada was told to kill an unarmed civilians sure thats an illegal order, but if Watada refuse to kill the civilian he can still be tried at CM because is the court and superior officers that decide if its an illegal, not Watada himself.

Watada swore to this: I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

Watada can not as an individula officer decide that a war is illegal on his own account(much less and order), because its not his position to decide. He has decided that his order to report for duty (and a few others) was an illegal order.

I dont see how support for the war has much to do with Watada's choice. Its like drawing the conclusion that if you dont like the Chargers you hate football. Well maybe you like the Pats and dont hate football at all.

[haoleboy]

Is it like saying you love Jack-in-the-Box tacos but hate Mexican food?
Jared, your football analogy is profound.
Sorry about your Chargers.

Aloha
Richwhiteboy

“When I played pro football, I never set out to hurt anyone deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something”
- Dick Butkus



Edited by - haoleboy on 01/16/2007 02:36:31

[Kahunascott]

Jared I,
I wasn't going to weigh in on this topic again, but I must say.....Well done.

[oink]

I wasn't going to respond again either, but I must give credit for a well written response. Jared I expressed the thoughts I was trying to convey, but did a much better job of it. An obviously calmer and less emotional response.

S. FL Islander to be