TMT groundbreaking - live

[Southernmost]

Cyril Pahinui on TMT: Aloha Mai Kakou! The message is for all of us. Be inclusive that we are together. The time is pivotal. Continue. Holomua. Seek compliance with the law. Maintain your discipline. Maintain your position. It is our responsibility to do the right thing.

Born&Raised Hawai'i Island

[Southernmost]

From Civi Beat:
http://www.civilbeat.com/2015/04/protest...74fddc6051

Born&Raised Hawai'i Island

[ironyak]

[quote]Originally posted by rainyjim

It's called a social compact

Basically it means that we follow the rules of society even if we don't agree with all of them or all the time.

And again, the majority have already decided that A. Telescopes on Mauna Kea are OK and B. TMT is good to go.

While I agree that social contract theory helps explain how we agree to coexist, your explanation is a little over simplified IMHO. Protest movements draw on philisophies that emphasize the individual over the state, especially when matters of priciple or conscience are involved. This tradition stems mainly from Locke and Rousseau and provided the philosophical basis for the French and American revolutions, which tore up the social contract of the time and rewrote it with an emphsis on protecting personal liberty.

This tradition was carried forward and enhanced by Thoreau in his essay Civil Disobedience and his actions against slavery. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it as it forms the basis for understanding many of the successful protest movements such as ending slavery, segregation, and various wars, to promoting civil rights, environmentalism, and independence, such as in India and South Africa. This historical thread of change based on personal conscience aligns with the actions seen up on Mauna Kea.
http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil.html

As for the majority deciding, was there a vote taken? I'm surprised there has not even been a poll - Ige and OHA have to be running the numbers to determine how best to represent their constituents.

[ironyak]

Welcome back TomK. Couple quick questions to help clear up some of that confusion you mentioned.

- What is the operational status of the current 13 telescopes on Mauna Kea? What's your thoughts on the notion of decomissioning some to make way for new instruments like the TMT?

- What is the scientific value of the TMT and how does its capabilities compare or fit in with the other large telescopes such as the 39m project in Chile?

[Kalena]

To me, the events on Mauna Kea are an expression of the conflict between the indigenous peoples (and their supporters) and the industrialized powers of the world. This conflict has been going on for several centuries and has almost played out. The indigenous peoples of the world were hunters, fisherfolk, gatherers and farmers, but most of them have lost so much of their land that they are now a part of a more powerful dominant culture. The world view of most native peoples is one in which the cosmos is viewed as sacred and the responisbility of humans is to sustain it by maintaining balance or equilibrium. That's a world view very different from industrialized cultures.

With industrialization, the environment has become external, to be understood and ultimately used in service of human needs. If the view of native peoples is one of the environment as a web, the industrialized view is more of a pyramid with humans at the apex. Other forms of life serve human needs.

I am not against knowledge. But I find myself wondering at this time whether the view that science trumps all is really serving our planet. Our planet is faltering under our endeavors. Our children and grandchildren are facing a perilous future. Perhaps viewing the cosmos as sacred is not so far off the mark. I believe that's why the protesters are gaining so much support.

[randomq]

Dakine, that is my point, people are playing the 'sacred' card without actually practicing or even believing in the gods that would make it so. Then there are ridiculous claims of environmental harm that are not at all backed by fact. It seems in every case someone has pointed out such facts here, they are summarily ignored.

Far from a teapublican, I'm a liberal that believes in protecting the land and preserving the unique lifestyles only available on this island. I just don't see the TMT affecting either of those.

[randomq]

I like your argument; one size does not have to fit all when it comes to societies. I don't think it would work for the whole planet without tremendous suffering, starvation, and war (much like the ancient Hawaiian wars over land and resources). It might work for a modern Hawaii, at least until some other powers conspired to overthrow it... But could you convince enough people to make it a reality? I think too many people appreciate modern communication, travel, medicine, entertainment, and conveniences to revert to a non-industrialized society. And a non-industrialized society will be at a trade deficit and not be able to import many luxuries... So is the prospect of going back to a simpler time real, or a pipe dream?

I think it's more feasible to preserve the good things we have here now, and work towards incrementally improving things. That approach will probably attract more supporters and accomplish more in the long run...

[Southernmost]

Mahalo Kalena, very eloquently stated. The FWOP on here probably will jump all over this but if you take note of the read counter on this post, you'll notice how many don't speak up but are reading everything that is posted.

And for those who are only reading on this issue but staying quiet here's a interesting article:

http://www.theradiantmama.com/trouble-ma...eir-truth/

Born&Raised Hawai'i Island

Ef: iphone spellcheck

[randomq]

I have read your posts and links, and I can see how people might feel differently. I just don't agree that those feelings should trump science or logical reasoning or democracy.

[Southernmost]

quote:

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Originally posted by randomq

I have read your posts and links, and I can see how people might feel differently. I just don't agree that those feelings should trump science or logical reasoning or democracy.

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Random, I can respect that. For me, it is a much more complex issue. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Born&Raised Hawai'i Island

Ef: spelling