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Sen Ruderman, where is the proof
#41
Sorry Mr. Ruderman, but “the highest authority, that is, the Senate attorneys who decide such matters” is wrong. It is the Courts that decide such matters, not the Senate Attorneys, they can only give "Advisory Opinions", which we all know has a 50% chance that the judge will disagree with.

As far as your article, it is an opinion piece, nothing more, nothing scientific, no facts at all, coming from someone who states what he thinks are facts yet fails to point to where those "facts" came from. What Richard Ha (and many others) have asked is where the studies or proof of your facts are?

"Thank you all for the interest. As mentioned in my column, I will be addressing these studies in more detail in future columns. I look forward to discussing the Seralini study, which, in addition to showing serious effects from GMOs, illuminates the aggressive tactics of biotec companies in suppressing science it doesn't like." - Russell Ruderman http://bigislandweekly.com/sections/news...ons.html?j comment section.

Again, the main question is, where are the “studies/citations” that prove your opinion that you clearly stated you have in the quotation of your post above? You can easily copy and paste those here and you would be answering the question, but you do appear to be dodging that exact question both here and there.

The ONLY study you have mentioned is the Seralini study... As stated it has been retracted, and you should know that before you start commenting in your "future columns" about a study that has been found to be bad..

“Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize,” by Gilles Eric Séralini et al. has been retracted by the journal Food and Chemical Toxicology
Cambridge, MA, November 28, 2013 - http://www.elsevier.com/about/press-rele...SpNtV.dpuf
It was also found to be a bad study by other countries too..

"Following a review of the published data, scientists from Health Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) have identified significant shortcomings in the study design, implementation and reporting. The methodology used was inadequately described, the full data set was not presented, and the data that was reported was not presented in a transparent manner. Furthermore, the statistical methods used by the authors to analyse the data were judged to be inappropriate." "Reviews of this paper have also been published by the German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment (BfR)Footnote 1i, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA)Footnote 2ii, Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ)Footnote 3iii, and the Agence nationale de sécurité sanitaire de l’alimentation, de l’environnement et du travail (ANSES)Footnote 4iv. All of these reviews concluded that study design, the presentation and interpretation of the data are flawed. As such, all four agencies concluded that it was not possible to give weight to the study results and concluded that there was no reason to revisit the safety evaluation of NK603. These food safety assessment bodies also requested that the authors of the study provide them with raw data for further analysis." http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/gmf-agm/seralini-eng.php

And see how easy it is to give a citation, something you have been asked for over and over and still have failed to give on both sites .

I would highly recommend people read his article and the comments posted by many highly educated people with the same concerns about the citations needed.

As far as the claim of conflict...
CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
Disqualification
You must disqualify yourself from taking any official
action directly affecting a business or undertaking in
which you have a substantial financial interest.
HRS §84-14(a)
INITIATING A CHARGE
Charges: A charge by a person concerning an apparent
violation of the State Ethics Code is a written statement,
signed under oath. Individuals normally use a notary
public to authenticate oaths. Charges initiated by the State
Ethics Commission need not be under oath, but must be
signed by three or more commissioners.
Who may initiate a charge: Members of the public; elected
officials; employees; members of boards and
commissions; and the Hawaii State Ethics Commission
itself may initiate a charge of alleged violations of the State
Ethics Code.
How to initiate a charge: A charge may be brought by a
person by filing a statement, signed under oath, with the
State Ethics Commission setting forth the name and state
position of the alleged violator, and describing the facts
constituting the alleged violation.
Statute of limitations: Charges of alleged violations may
be brought within six years of an alleged violation.
HRS §84-31(a)(6)
http://hawaii.gov/ethics/pubs_guides/ethicsguide.pdf

You might also want to know it is more common for people on the internet to use "the usual pseudonyms", instead of their names for reasons, and it is a very acceptable practice by billions of people on the internet all over the world. Calling people out for using an "internet identity" (which is what it is called on the internet) is both rude and uncalled for and on many sites will get you banned as it is the same as name calling. Get over it.

As far as ethics, you might want to learn a little more about internet ethics, including BACKING UP YOUR OPINION WITH PROOF OR CITATIONS. For instance you will see many places on many sites (especially Wikipedia and such) that state “citation needed” as they are saying they need the proof, therefore this is (as we say on the internet) JYO or just your opinion or in legal terms hearsay.

Which is exactly why many scientists who know a hell of a lot more about it than you keep asking, where is your proof??? I am not saying you are right or wrong, you brought up the subject with your article. As Mr. Ha is doing I am asking for your proof of YOUR facts as YOU presented them to be.
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#42
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Ha

Permie. Keep in mind that we are located in the humid sub tropics. And, there is no winter to kill off the bugs and reset the clock. Insects,weeds and diseases love it here.

Here in Southwest Florida where I currently live, the situation is the same. I practice Permaculture and have a 2.5 acre Food Forest with over 400 food producing trees and countless support species.

Want to know how many pesticides I sprayed last year?

Zero.

It CAN be done, we just have to change our methodologies. It sounds like the voters have cast a vote for change in Hawaii (which is part of the reason I am moving there).

Richard, I don't know who you are, but based upon your posts, I can reasonably conclude that you are an accomplished farmer who is politically active, a community leader, and a sincere person. If I was in your position with your background, I'm sure I would be very frustrated as well. You've had great success providing food in a way you feel is just and suddenly a law is passed that you don't agree with that brings that future into question. Actually, I think I would be more than frustrated!

Hawaii is leading a change whether some want it or not. There is a huge movement afoot and it is attracting more and more people like me. People who are against pesticides and against most (or all) GMO. This movement is only going to get stronger. However, movements like this shouldn't leave people like you in a worse-off position. If these ideologies are correct in their practice and are going to lead to better health and food security, then they should also work with current farmers, even those who disagree with the movement. Because, especially in a place like Hawaii, we're all in this together.

My question to you Richard is, would you be open to permaculturists helping you make a transition if you are unable to defeat this new law? I have no problem with you fighting the law, that's democracy. But would you be interested in starting a test plot while you fight the law just in case you aren't able to succeed in reversing the decision? Because maybe, just maybe, you can adopt these new ways and your goals continue to be met or possibly exceeded. And then everyone wins, which should always be our goal.

The goal of a permaculture design team would simply be to maximize your design to minimize your inputs and labors. With some of those inputs being pesticides and herbicides.
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#43
quote:
Originally posted by Clayjacks

Okay, innocent question: Why are GMO foods considered to be "covered in poison"?
Also, as a simple matter of semantics, remember that Genetically Modified plants include every plant cultivated for food or utility throughout human history. Genetic "modification" is plant breeding. That fantastic lemon that's been grown, organically, in your back yard has been genetically modified to be fantastic. It's the Genetically Engineered (GE) stuff that I presume everyone is shouting about. This is where certain gene sequences are inserted into the DNA of various agricultural crops. I'm in no way supporting one side or the other, and the jury is still out on the health/environmental impacts, but there are no "chemicals" in the equation.
So I'm seriously, and innocently (again), wondering why a "Rainbow" papaya engineered for a certain viral resistance is so terrifying? I'm no fan of corporate genetic patenting, but how is it any different from a "Beefsteak" tomato or a "Knockout" rose?



The largest proprietor of GMO crops is Monsanto.

Monsanto is also the worlds largest retailer of pesticides and insecticides. (Round Up etc)

Monsanto has grown, sold and copyrighted the rights to certain strains of fruits and vegetables, that either

1- Have pesticides built into the genetics that detour bugs by making the bugs stomachs explode after they consume the plants, mmmm must be good for us-

2- or the plants are sprayed with an array of Monsanto approved pesticides and insecticides that of which the plants are dependent on because of the genetic makeup.

Yumm.

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#44
If anyone is so ignorant as to say -

"There has been no LONG TERM scientific studies to show GMO's are bad", and that is your argument, well than, I have some pins and needles for you to swallow, but dont worry,there hasnt been any long term scientific study to show it is harmful.

Its ****ing sharp.

pesticides are ****ing poison.

How are we even having this conversation ?!?

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#45
Permie, I have seen some great gardening and I am confident that what you have done on 2.5 acres is impressive. Are there any examples of the agriculture you advocate being practiced on the scale of say 1,000 acres?

The reason I ask is that the country's and world's population is large. Feeding this growing planet requires more than gardening and my own experience on a 300 acre farm is that it takes massive amounts of back breaking labor, labor no one wants to do anymore, to practice organic level farming on a large scale.

Then I have to consider the effects of climate change and mankind's ability to adapt or die when our agricultural zones are facing challenges never before encountered.
Assume the best and ask questions.

Punaweb moderator
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#46
Rob, the largest I'm familiar with is 100 acres. There may be larger operations, but I'm not aware of them. There's no reason Permaculture can't scale however. Permaculture is a design and engineering system that that creates sustainable ecosystems that mimic nature. Sustainable ecosystems that, done correctly, should not require the backbreaking work you speak of. We're not against the use of mechanization but of course want to reduce its use for the farmer's pocketbook as well as the benefit of the ecosystem. We also focus on perennial crops for a variety of reasons including having 300 acres of organic broccoli is backbreaking (unsustainable) work like you describe. If Richard has 1000 acres of broccoli and wants to only have 1000 acres of broccoli then yes, Permaculture isn't like to benefit him very much though some implementations could be useful.

I agree with you that feeding the population of the world is a daunting task. A task that we are already failing miserably at. Over a billion people in the world are currently not receiving enough food and billions of us who are, are receiving food that is unhealthy. Even our, "healthy" food these days is less nutritionally dense than previously. There are studies showcasing that since 1980, the nutrient density of our fruits and vegetables has dropped between 5 and 40% depending on the variety. There are also studies showcasing that there is a negative correlation between yield and nutrient density. And then of course there is the problem of having to utilize pesticides and herbicides when we farm in a manner that does not work to create a balance in nature.

It's daunting indeed. The one area I disagree with you on is that nobody wants to do the farming labor anymore. I agree that nobody wants to go out and pick row after row of tomatoes anymore. But there are countless people who want to get back to the land and practice permaculture who simply can't afford to. The 53 interns I had to turn away from my very small farm last year showcases that. The question is, how can we allow people like Richard to continue to profit, IMPROVE the ecosystem, and provide extremely nutrient dense, healthy food free of potentially toxic byproducts. Those who bring all parties to the table and solve these problems in an inclusive manner are the real leaders we need.
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#47
Id rather eat GMO than pesticide or fungicide. That being said, I'm not a fan of any of them. But once you bring out the poisons ... It's not just the Humans that are getting the side effects but that crap gets in the ground and gets in the drinking water... It has an effect on the entire land and sea when it becomes run off. Birds and wild life take a big hit as the concentration builds up.

Choose your poisons carefully people. One thing is bugs will adapt and get stronger. Results of using even more poisons to kill em. Sad situations that the people were never really told or looked at the consequences of their actions.
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#48
quote:
Originally posted by Oneself

If anyone is so ignorant as to say -

Sorry, but this is just over the line. Plenty of intelligent, educated, and informed people disagree with your statements. Among scientists, it's a majority. If you can't make your points without resorting to personal insults, I feel you should refrain from commenting.



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#49
quote:
Originally posted by Oneself

pesticides are ****ing poison.

Only to the organisms they are toxic to. Case in point, Bt pesticides are only toxic to certain insects, not at all to others. That should be a clue that they are not inherently toxic, but only specifically toxic. And the fact that they have been safely used by organic farmers for over 50 years, with no adverse effects, should be another clue.

Let's look at it from the other end of the picture. People safely eat many foods that are toxic to pets. As one example, you can kill a dog by feeding it just a few pieces of chocolate. In Colorado chocolate has been shown to be a safe and effective "pesticide" for controlling coyotes, while leaving other animals in the ecosphere unharmed.

This explanation of that effect explains why Bt pesticide is not a concern to people.

quote:
The different toxicities have to do with the way different species metabolize the alkaloid; humans process it much more efficiently than canines. And in small amounts, theobromine’s effects can make it medically useful. But even here, it shows complexity. It increases heart rate and at the same time it dilates blood vessels, acting to bring down blood pressure. It can also open up airways and is under study as a cough medication. It stimulates urine production and is considered a diuretic. It interacts with the central nervous system, although not as effectively as caffeine.

http://blogs.plos.org/speakeasyscience/2...chocolate/

And let's not overlook the fact that many homeopathic medicines start out as highly toxic substances that are diluted down.

quote:
How are we even having this conversation ?!?

It's simple. Because after more than 20 years on the market... long enough that the original soybean patents have already expired... there still is no credible evidence that there is any danger from GMOs, and the majority of scientists consider GMOs generally to be safe.

And that is the simple truth that anti-GMO advocates cannot overcome, so they have invented all kinds of bogus propaganda to try to bury it under.
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#50
My personal experience is from working on a small family farm of 300 acres. Those are pretty much gone now. The younger generations moved away from too much work and not enough money. I have family that farms on the 1,000 acre level reasonably profitably, highly mechanized. I also have family that has farmed 100,000 acres in Wyoming.

Three scales, three sets of problems.

Organic food is the most expensive in the country as a cost to acquire issue. It is nice that it is there for the elite to indulge in. I see no bridge to a mass market presented. Just platitudes.

In the midst of all the GMO debates I have seen no evidence presented anywhere that paying 40%-50% more for your food improves your life or health any. That is projected by the health food folks as a matter of faith. It is a lot like religion. I do see a steady stream of rather confused demonizing of GMO which frankly irritates the bejeesus out of me. Only Organic is the true god... all other gods are false.

Also while one argument presented is that GMO foods have not been proven to be safe, the same can be said for the organic industry.

I remain appreciative of the gardening small scale capabilities of organic but I believe our future survival will require the full capabilities of genetic modification technology whether you like it or not.

Assume the best and ask questions.

Punaweb moderator
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