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any TSA advice?
#41
"Those whom choose to give up liberty for security deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

I'm against what TSA represented 9 years ago as much as I'm against it today. If we were to believe that terrorism was the result of what happened 9 years ago, then I guess we also believe that communism resulted in death and destruction of tens of thousands in Vietnam too. Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth to the sheeple.

"they have nothing to do with security, and everything to do with acclimating the public to the violation of basic civil liberties."

"Opponents of both the full-body scanning and enhanced pat-downs note that the new procedure violates the right to privacy, particularly Constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure. The Fourth Amendment guards against strip searches or frisking people unless there is reasonable suspicion that they are engaged in criminal activity. "

"The Rutherford Institute, a civil liberties organization, has filed suit against Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Pistole on behalf of two pilots who refused both a full body scan and the pat-down.

"TSA is forcing travelers to consent to a virtual strip search or allow an unknown officer to literally place his or her hands in your pants," said Rutherford Institute President John Whitehead.

On Tuesday, a public interest research group announced it was also suing DHS in a freedom of information lawsuit intended to obtain medical records and studies that it says the agency has used to evaluate its body scanners.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center called on transport authorities to suspend the use of advanced imaging technology and called for public hearings into its use, center spokesman Marc Rotenberg said.

Consumer advocate and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader joined the group's request for more information, calling the agency secretive and unresponsive."
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#42
Well it started out with one of our local travelers asking a question and, as is usual for anything to do with national politics, has evolved into sloganeering on constitutional issues.



Assume the best and ask questions.

Punaweb moderator
Assume the best and ask questions.

Punaweb moderator
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#43
So, Mella, my advice (not "advise") is to put on your underwear with "Puna Bound" printed on it (whether you are or not), plant your feet where directed, raise your arms up high, and do a quick bump and grind before settling into the proper pose. It is best not to wink at the agent as you exit the Box, but, you know, if you are a bit of a renegade, a maverick and an outlaw, and feel a wink comin' on, no one is going to know. I know you are not single, but I am and I just look at the security check as another dating opportunity.

My most important security advise for you when traveling is this: Unplug. Do not watch television or permit anyone to attempt to make you watch television. Neither watching a bowl game nor the Macy's Parade constitutes visiting with family. With few exceptions (5-0, Maddow, and Nova), I haven't watched television since I was in Puna last July and it didn't come on once this trip either. If you avoid television you will also avoid getting caught up in the mandatory outrage du jour. That is the thing that makes American culture so unbearable at times -- this feeling of an entire nation being seized up over a ginned-up outrage (a mosque at "Ground Zero", some homely guy admonishing the TSA not to touch his junk, who killed Chandra Levy, death panels, Monica, whether Bristol Palin is a good dancer or not). One thing I have definetely brought back with me from Puna this year, other than blisters and a mysterious black welt on my back which has scabbed over nicely, thank you, is the idea that when I walk out my door, I am walking into a culture that is completely foreign to me and which I reject. To keep it from bleeding into my inner sanctum, I have disconnected somewhat. I heartily recommend it. Part of My Puna is the feeling that I am disconnected from all of these ginned-up concerns, pretend controversies and cultural obsessions. I was in Puna on election day (voted by mail before I left) and, on that day, I finally made the trek to Haena Beach. It was a true Vision Quest and one I really shouldn't have been able to do with my little disabiliy. But I did. And, I met Adele! -- she of the twin plantation homes. When my friend and I hiked back, the sun was still brilliant and high in the sky. And so we made some drinks and were about to jump in the pool when a mainland friend called to inform us of a particular result in the election which she found objectionable. It was a jarring and unwelcome call. We refused to let this so-called reality intrude, kept it short, downed our Pog-a-ritas and got tangled up in refreshing blue.

I, for one, am sick of the Church of the Poisoned Mind, and won't take the chalice anymore. Lamont has it right -- just go and forget about all this stuff.
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#44
agreed - the choice - remains a personal one - grope or nuke.

buy a ticket, spin the TSA wheel and a "lucky" few seem to be treated to both. What is the alternative?


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#45
quote:
Originally posted by Glen

The very same people who wanted us all to abandon every civil liberty we have for the sake of "security" are now crying over these machines, which have been in the works for a long time, and the pat-down process which is an administrative search under the Fourth Amendment.



A quick Google search for "administrative search TSA" led me to this, posted by a law student known only as Matthew...

"Just because the Ninth Circuit ruled (in US v. Davis) that 1973 airport screening procedures were legal administrative searches does not mean that the TSA is not currently violating the Fourth Amendment. In fact, the same court addressed secondary screenings only three years ago.

"In Aukai, the Ninth Circuit stated TSA screening procedures are 'well-tailored to protect personal privacy escalating in invasiveness only after a lower level of screening disclosed a reason to conduct a more probing search.' (United States v. Aukai, 497 F.3d 955 (2007)).

"Employing AIT and enhanced pat-downs as primary screening mechanisms hardly seems to comport to that ruling."

And so the debate rages.....

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#46
Macuu writes: 'm on the TSA list for part time employment at Hilo Airport. Have been since they advertised for part time help back in 2005. I passed the test and everything...just waiting for a call to start work. I had brown hair back then....now it's gray....wondering if I'll have any hair by the time they call me.....LOL

ME: If you do, don't wear it in a ponytail! Some disenchanted traveler may pull it clean off your head! I think, just as a 'local' matter, it behooves all of us, regardless of our personal opinions, to remember, the agents doing their job, are doing a job, trying to make a living and dealing with the indignant travelers among us -- and I include myself [My experience with Boston TSA is well documented on my blog site from 2009 with reference to the TSA's response] http://www.write-matters.com/2009/07/iss...eness.html

The only unpleasant experience I have had in the whole state was on Oahu and during a time when I had to wear a back brace. If it hadn't been for the man behind me who distracted the TSA agents after it was obvious the young man who was insisting I remove the brace and proceed through the line was not going to let me proceed without removing it thereby further injuring my back...I'd have probably wound up in the hospital and Honolulu Airport with the bill. The man behind me was big, loud voice and lost his patience with the little guy who was provoking me . But, one bad experience out of the many many many times with none and in fact most of the time in Honolulu the entertainment by the TSA agents is very stress breaking for people standing in the lines.

Hopefully, our Hilo TSA Agents are being spared the added stress of travelers already expecting a problem and wound up tight enough to give it. Not traveling by air myself anytime soon; who knows what next 'near miss' will happen and what 'more enhanced methods' we will get to experience by the time I do! Yowsa! So glad to be all alone in my little corner of Puna. Smile

Toni, who is a 'critter lover'
www.write-matters.com
"Q might have done the right thing for the wrong reason, perhaps we need a good kick in our complacency to get us ready for what's ahead" -- Captain Picard, to Guinan (Q Who?)
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#47
I respect the TSA and the job they're hired to do, however I wish all the "powers that be" who are defending the new pat-downs would subject themselves, their spouses, their children and their elderly parents to the process before they comment on how necessary and noninvasive it is. Somehow, I find it hard to imagine Barak standing idly by while Michelle, Sasha and Melia were felt up by a TSA agent. I am no prude, but even I was taken aback when the TSA guy in DC fondled my junk. No candy, no flowers, and he never called me like he said he would...
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#48
Perhaps I was too glib in a couple of my earlier comments within this discussion thread. For the record (in case an effort at humor passed as a literal position rather than as irony) I did not really assume the TSA would attempt to ban suitcases after the Namibia scare, though I do assume it is in the nature of any bureaucracy to grow itself larger and entrench itself more deeply at any opportunity to do so.

Some of Glen's comments (of 11/20/2010:16:32:47 in particular) prompt the sense that at least two important distinctions are at risk of becoming collapsed, plus feeling a pang of conscience.

The distinctions I see as potentially being collapsed are:
-not all outrage at the ineffective and inappropriate TSA is false outrage, and
-for some of us progressive green folk--myself included--who ourselves are patriots long reviled by the RRR this authentic outrage with the TSA has been present since day one.

Glen is absolutely correct about the RRR doing an astounding flip-flop from anyone-who-does-not-unquestioningly-support-the-TSA-is-a-traitor! to just the opposite. But there are progressive civil libertarians who opposed this ill-conceived and even more-poorly executed agency from the outset. I am mentioning this just so everyone who currently opposes the TSA does not get lumped together, given the highly significant differences in the histories of our opposition, motivations, and focal points in objection.

My pang of conscience regards the genuine anger I feel toward the individuals who put on the anonymous mask of a TSA uniform. It would be dishonest to say my feelings for these people do not vary from annoyance and distaste to moments of outright hatred depending on the particular interaction I am having or witnessing. Yet is this loathing justified, or simply evidence I need to reflect more deeply and become more mature in managing my own emotions? Because I have flown hundreds of times since 11SEP2001, I have personally experienced and been eye-witness to dozens of instances of utterly inappropriate and outright disgraceful behavior by TSA. The dozens of awful experiences stand out much more in memory and weigh heavier in the balance than the numerically larger portion of more-or-less neutral instances.

When I left Alaska and gratefully came to this land of aloha as my new home in retirement, I swapped the AlaskaSteven handle for AlohaSteven in part because I want to leave the constant bitter partisan battle I was engaged with for so long in Alaska behind me, embracing the aloha spirit here instead. The pang of conscience comes when neighbors with whom I feel a sense of community here put on nameless TSA uniforms and become members of a gang which has demonstrated over and over it can and will bully, ruthlessly, anyone who does not obey every last whim and caprice of those wearing the anonymous uniforms. Suddenly I am no longer feeling a sense of community with those neighbors. Instead, I am seeing them holding a stick over us while my loved ones and I are threatened (figuratively and literally) with being beaten by that stick. A stick, ironically, which we are forced to pay for via taxes and fees and a stick which we know with certainty is absolutely ineffective at preventing genuine intelligently calculated efforts toward terrorism. Get hit with a stick often enough, and after awhile YOU WANT THAT STICK!

The TSA uniform-wearer may be a wonderful person in his or her life before joining the TSA or outside of the TSA, just a regular member of the local community who is simply glad to find a job via which to be able to pay the bills. At first, so were any number of Germans who put on Nazi uniforms, Cambodians who joined the Khmer Rouge, and so on. Not an excessively extreme example- in the beginning any number of groups who later proved to be hideous in many regards started out as clean-cut, earnest, and at least superficially helpful. All German medical doctors and Ph.Ds were automatically made lieutenants in the SS; no choice about that. What those hapless individuals did have some choice about was whether to continue on in that role, following orders and doing what they were told, or to resist in any way possible once they realized the true nature of that with which they were colluding. A member of the community here who joins the TSA thinking they are doing a good thing, but who in that role becomes a person who will do to others that which is being done (all sorts of appalling and disgraceful stuff - I can list and source 'em if folks doubt this and insist but would rather not take the time; it is a long list -do some web searches on the topic), well, I have mixed feelings about them at best.

Yes, the free world (and I'll include the USA within that sphere for the sake of argument) does need rational and effective security oversight of air travel and other shipping. The TSA does not provide rational and effective security oversight. For the sake of everyone I, personally, hope very much for Obama to have the most successful presidency of all time; toward this end I'd suggest completely dismantling the TSA even down to the hated name. The TSA has not only been ineffective but has stupidly and brutishly covered itself in disgrace and shame. Start over with a completely new system which incorporates all the lessons learned from the failed TSA experience combined with the wisdom of practice from partner nations. Allies from Israel to the Netherlands are shaking their heads in sorrow at the waste of US resources and international credibility squandered on the blundering TSA.

Thus my pang of conscience: I want to feel aloha in my heart when I am in Hilo at the airport and encounter the TSA, yet instead the experiences I and others have had since 2001 have taught me to feel very wary of anyone wearing a TSA uniform. That system is broken. Part of how it is broken is how neighbors start to become willing to treat other neighbors when they put on that TSA uniform. My concerns about the backscatter radiation exposure are evidence-based and legitimate, so I will instead opt for the inappropriate gate rape and just try to bite my tongue during the process. Maybe I am mistaken about how all this TSA-uniformed business is dividing the community and about how it is inherently unhealthy, but I predict that sooner or later a gang of TSA uniforms are going to be physically restraining a terrified, screaming, helpless child while s/he is being groped by a stranger and some parent is going to go ballistic and attack the TSA. Right here in Hilo. Roll the dice enough times and they are going to eventually come up snake eyes. Some parent, perhaps, who was raped or molested themself as a helpless child, and who has been doing everything s/he can to keep cool, but just completely loses it when s/he sees and hears a beloved child in genuine terror. How is this going to be a win for anyone, I ask 'yal? The terrified child gets to see mom or dad mobbed and beaten, tazered, arrested, and caught in the teeth of another self-feeding bureaucratic cancer (the so-called criminal justice system), perhaps placed on a no-fly list (more than a minor inconvenience for people who live in Hawaii and Alaska), and yet more seething hatred mounting among members of the community toward those who collude with the TSA. No wonder those who work for the TSA keep it a secret; sooner or later infuriated individuals seeking revenge will probably start hunting for them when they are away from the sheltering cover of their fellow gang members at the airport.

Bullwinkle quite rightly observed and asked the choice - remains a personal one - grope or nuke. buy a ticket, spin the TSA wheel and a "lucky" few seem to be treated to both. What is the alternative?

The alternative, imho, is:
-Support rational and effective security oversight and an end to this disgraceful farce which is the TSA.
-Contact senators and congressional representatives requesting exactly this and calling for a full congressional investigation of the TSA.
-Avoid flying as much as possible --particularly on 24NOV2010, "opt-out day"-- and inform the airlines of this decision.
-Donate to legal defense funds and organizations fighting for genuinely effective security procedures and against corrupt "sweetheart deal" military-industrial collusion further compromising American liberty.
-Insist on documenting incidents with a TSA report, do not leave the site of the incident until local law enforcement has arrived and also taken a report, demand and obtain a copy of the reports, and share the TSA and law enforcement incident reports with EPIC, the ACLU, and the media.
-Speak out to those we know and in forums such as here on Punaweb.
-To neighbors in East Hawaii who are taking my tax money from the TSA and wearing that uniform which is fast becoming such a hated symbol of everything that has gone wrong in the US since 11SEP2001, I say "quit." Leave that disgraced and dishonorable job, if you possibly can, and if for some compelling reason you genuinely cannot then please do document your experience from the inside and become a whistleblower further exposing the deficiencies in this deeply flawed system. Be part of the solution, not part of the pollution.
-Finally, Elusis makes an excellent suggestion based on Milgram's infamous "obedience to authority" experiment:
http://elusis.livejournal.com/2141915.html

There are effective alternatives to silent submission and resigned acceptance of a deeply and dangerously flawed situation. If we all use these alternatives, then this situation will quickly improve.


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#49
aloha all,

if you have some time, check out some of Jeffrey Goldberg's "experiments," with the TSA and airport security. they're quite funny and sadly, very revealing.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arch...ried/7057/
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#50
quote:
-Support rational and effective security oversight and an end to this disgraceful farce which is the TSA.
That's the problem. For all the verbiage describing "outraged" thoughts and feelings, here's what it comes down to: a very blah, generic demand for something better, hardly even a talking point.

You, and many other "outraged" people have zero Plan B. How can it be possible to make access to aircraft safe for the public without some kind of search? Even if we all got naked, remember those body cavity bombs! This is a hard problem folks!

Yes, the Israeli behavioral scrutiny has been suggested, but the counter argument has been that it doesn't scale to the size of U.S. air traffic. Myself, I think they get so many false positives that they can easily catch bad guys. Probably, in the end, using the same intrusive searches that we are complaining about now. And do you see TSA employees becoming such observational experts?

So, if you're going to complain, at least let us know of your realistic alternative first.
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