Don't ask/don't tell (cause and effect)

[oink]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mauka: Note that I never addressed anything to you unless provoked by you. Give me the same courtesy.

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You're kidding, right? You feel it's your right or duty to take umbrage and rant against other people or their posts but others don't have the right to have the same response to you or yours? (Puna)

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[tlboyles1]

In the news, you don't hear anything about gay harassment toward straight guys. In the news, you do hear about straight harassment toward gays, sometimes leading to suicide. Anyone being harassed for being suspected of being gay has little recourse in the military under DADT. If he lodges a harassment complaint, that could be seen as an admission of "guilt" and he could be thrown out of the military. Instead, they just suffer in silence. Some might try to get better at "man talk" when the subject of women comes up or find other ways to prove they "aren't gay". Either way it's just plain wrong. DADT is wrong on a number of levels.

[Guest]

N

[oink]

If I feel you're attacking someone else I may respond. If you want to attack me go ahead it doesn't bother me and I may or may not respond. I'm not part of any cadre and have only been to Lack's blog a few times (Some of his cartoons are pretty good). I've yet to be booted from a forum or group and have no desire to be, although I suppose it could happen. I don't always agree with Rob but I do try to follow his rules. I obviously don't always agree with the members and some posts on this forum. What leads you to believe I always agree with the members and posts on any forum. Reading the posts on the other forum would prove that (don't bother, I wouldn't). For that matter, if you read enough old posts on this forum you would find that I wasn't always in great agreement with all members of the "cadre" when they were active on punaweb. There is both good and bad most places. One doesn't haven't exclude the other. Thanks for helping to fill the time on this very rainy (like Puna) day.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[Guest]

I

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Credit to: http://www.afn.org/~afn39695/ransom.htm
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[mdd7000]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mauka

No, I'm not kidding. I was talking to the OP. MDD decided to make a personal attack against me in the middle of it. As I said, I'd rather not talk with him. I don't care if he or you or John Rabi come on and give your opinion, but but don't attack me or I'll have something to say about it. I didn't attack any of you. As I said I was talking to the OP. On The Lacks blog your little cadre brag about getting tossed out of discussion groups like it's a badge of honour. IMO you just diminish yourselves.

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Personal attack?
All I said was that it was his right to feel any way he wanted to.
(I don't post on any other Hawaii forums/blogs)

[Guest]

M

[oink]

Back to Lack's blog. He had directions on building a smoker on there once. Lack, how about posting a link to the directions for building your Big Island smoker again.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[KeaauRich]

quote:

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Originally posted by kalama boy

mahalo keaauRich for your input.
As you mentioned, you are a homosexual and will probably see it from that angle, which is understandable. I suppose as a gay man this looks like a great idea,....showering, changing and sleeping in the same berthing area with 30 other males. Now try and see it from the other side.

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Well, it may surprise you to learn that gay and lesbian individuals are not eager to join the service so that they can bunk and shower with members of their own sex. The military is not some uber-singles bar! These patriotic individuals want to serve the country we love and defend its values (even though they do not have equal rights under the law). Trust me, there are many venues that offer the opportunity to view naked men and women that do not also include the risk of being shot at or blown up by a land mine.

quote:

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Originally posted by kalama boy


...If 29 straight males live in a 30 man berthing area and they all know there is one gay man bunked there also, do you really believe there will be no tension, problems or uncomfortableness felt while showering, changing or sleeping, by any of the 29 others? If you do, I wonder what planet you are from (maybe Canada...is that a planet). Soldiers and Sailors are not robots, they have feelings also. That is why scenarios like this are being adressed and discussed now, it could affect retention and recruitment rates down the line.

Aloha.

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Well, since it is generally acknowledged that there are already gays serving in the military, apparently our troops are able to deal with the theoretical possibility that a bunk mate may be gay. Know exactly who is or isn't the homo in their midst is might actually lessen their anxiety (grin). However, I would assume that all 30 men in the berthing area of a war zone have more serious concerns on their mind than the presence of a gay man in their midst.

And yes, gays and straights are not robots...we all have feelings. But we also have intellects and the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and the ability to control our own behavior. In rare cases where that is not the case, workplace and military rules are in place to enforce infractions.

And finally, since you mentioned Canada (and yes, while I was born in the US, I actually do have dual US-Canadian citizenship, here is more data you might find interesting (copied from wikipedia):

A study of gays and lesbians in the Canadian military has found that after Canada’s 1992 decision to allow homosexuals to serve openly in its armed forces, military performance did not decline. The study is the most comprehensive academic study by US researchers of homosexuality in a foreign military ever compiled and reflects an exhaustive inventory of relevant data and research. Its title is "Effects of the 1992 Lifting of Restrictions on Gay and Lesbian Service in the Canadian Forces; Appraising the Evidence".

* Lifting of restrictions on gay and lesbian service in the Canadian Forces has not led to any change in military performance, unit cohesion, or discipline.
* Self-identified gay, lesbian, and transsexual members of the Canadian Forces contacted for the study describe good working relationships with peers.
* Before Canada lifted its gay ban, a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers found that 62% said that they would refuse to share showers, undress or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier. After the ban was lifted, follow-up studies found no increase in disciplinary, performance, recruitment, sexual misconduct, or resignation problems.