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Another Home Invasion in HPP
#61
Lavalava - that was a good post, I understand what you are saying and agree to much of it, but the point I was trying to make is that Oneself has pretty much made it his or her agenda to piss off people who have lived here for a long time. I'm certainly not anti-progress, you'd know that if you had read posts I made in the past, and am ashamed by the political/old boy nonsense we get here. But the island is different from anywhere else and if you have just arrived here and tell everyone what they should do or what will happen is quite insulting and no way to become ingrained in the culture or simply live here, unless you want to live in a gated community.

This is not the mainland. I miss civilisation myself, it's sometimes quite hard to deal with certain people, but other times I have met the most beautiful, friendly and knowledgeable locals and the last thing I'd ever dream of doing is telling them what to do.
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#62
Sorry but birdside is the first one to to tell the story the way it should play out 90 percent of the time. If you are a somewhat sober responsible gun owner and trained properly in the use of your firearm and a civil empathetic human being. You will stave off any threat brought to your home by some tweaker or wanna be gangster without fireing a shot. If it is a smart tweaker/ junior gangsters he's gonna run fast when he sees the business end of the p38 or Uzi or shotgun, howitzer or magna Ray cannon that you feel sufficient to protect you and yours. The dumb ones may hang around at gun point and wait for you to call the cops. And yes he may get a far lighter sentence than we all know he should. And yes there May be the time that the mad man does come to the door and this is also covered in your manuel for responsible gun ownership it's in the threat evaluation chapter. It's also well sorted in your DNA though many people seem asleep at the wheel when it comes to the base functions of their mind and body. Can you recognize the true threat to your life as opposed to the tweaker looking to lift your jewlry to make the next score? Yea things can happen fast and you don't want to misjudge the situation. The fact is you can't put the bullets back in the gun once you fire them into another human being And I promise chances are you will at some point wish you could. And I believe this holds true in Hawaii or Florida and any other municipality. Yes it is definantly better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 but far better tho choose neither.
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#63
Haw. Rev. Stat. § 703-304 : Hawaii Statutes - Section 703-304: Use of force in self-protection.
Search Haw. Rev. Stat. § 703-304 : Hawaii Statutes - Section 703-304: Use of force in self-protection.
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(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.
(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.

(3) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (4) and (5) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.

(4) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

(a) To resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or

(b) To resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

(i) The actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest; or

(ii) The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.

(5) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section if:

(a) The actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

(b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

(i) The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

(ii) A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties, or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape, is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform his duty, effect the arrest, or prevent the escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom the action is directed.

(6) The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime. [L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; ree L 1975, c 163, §3; am L 2001, c 91, §4]

COMMENTARY ON §703-304

This section substantially adopts the Model Penal Code rules on justification of the use of force in self-protection. It has been rewritten and reorganized to make it more easily understandable.

Subsection (1) requires a belief by the actor that the use of protective force is actually necessary, and that unlawful force (defined in §703-300) is to be used by the assailant. He must believe, further, that immediate use of force is required, although the threatened harm to him need not be "imminent", as the rule was sometimes phrased at common law. It is enough that unlawful force is threatened on the present occasion by his assailant. The actor may make his defensive move without waiting for his assailant to load his gun or to summon reinforcements. Finally, the actor must believe that the particular degree of force used by him is necessary. This formulation is not meant to require a precise equation, but it will limit the defense to situations in which a particular scope and degree of retaliation is believed by the actor to be appropriate to the aggression.

Subsections (2) and (5) strictly limit the use of deadly force. Under the circumstances specified in subsection (2), the actor may use deadly force if he believes it is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily harm, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy. This formulation has two implications: (a) the actor must believe that deadly force is the only viable means of preventing the specified harm, and (b) the actor must believe that one of the specified harms is threatened on the present occasion. "Deadly force" is defined in §703-300. Its use is further restricted by subsection (5). Deadly force may not be used if the actor provoked his assailant's use of force against himself in the same encounter with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily injury. Of course, if he intends only moderate harm and receives a deadly response, the initial aggressor may respond with deadly force. The use of deadly force is also denied when the actor can avoid using it with complete safety by retreating, by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right to it, or by complying with a demand that he refrain from taking an action which he has no legal duty to take. In any of these cases, the Code may seem to be opting for cowardice. However, it should be the strong principle of any criminal code to prevent death wherever possible. To quote the Model Penal Code commentary,

It rests, of course, upon the view that protection of life has such a high place in a proper scheme of social values that the law cannot permit conduct which places life in jeopardy, when the necessity for doing so can be avoided by the sacrifice of the much smaller value that inheres in standing up to an aggression.[1]

However, a duty to retreat or take over evasive action is not imposed in two situations. Subsection (5), subparagraph (b)(i), states that the actor is not required to retreat from his dwelling or his place of work unless he was the initial aggressor or unless he is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work he knows it to be. We would not normally expect a man to abandon his home to an aggressor and would allow him to stand his ground, although an exception is made, consistent with paragraph (a), if the actor is the initial aggressor. The exception for an attack in a man's place of work is new with the Model Penal Code. The same principles which permit a man to remain in his home would, for example, permit a shopkeeper to defend himself in his place of business without abandoning it to attackers. Subparagraph (b)(ii), of the same subsection, relates to public officials or persons assisting them using force in the performance of duty. It would be against public interest to require a public officer to abandon his duty if he meets resistance. This Code follows the Model Penal Code in extending the justification to all arrests and performances of duty, even if they are technically unlawful. Throughout Chapter 703 the rule is that resistance to unlawful arrest is to be made in court rather than physically.

The Code also specifically requires surrendering possession of a thing when the attacker asserts a claim of right thereto. Where a person offers deadly force unless another surrenders property to him, and claims a right to the property, it is certainly sound policy to save life and litigate the disputed ownership in court. Naturally, however, this rule does not apply in cases of robbery, where the assailant can make no claim of right, and it is the purpose of the Code to permit deadly resistance to robbery if the conditions of subsection (2) are met. Finally, deadly force is impermissible if the actor can avoid using it by complying with a demand that he refrain from any action which he has no duty to take. Again, the policy of saving life seems more insistent than the right of the individual to complete freedom of action.

Subsection (3) states the generally applicable rule that the actor need not retreat or take any other evasive action before estimating the necessity for the use of force in self-protection.

Subsection (4) sets general limits on the use of self- protective force. Paragraph (a) follows the Model Penal Code in forbidding any use of force to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer. Resistance to even an unlawful arrest should be made in court. No valid social policy is served by permitting physical resistance to peace officers who are known as such by the actor. If the law were to permit physical resistance, it would in effect be sanctioning unnecessary injury. However, only force for the purpose of resisting an arrest is proscribed. If the officer threatens to use unlawful force after the arrest, the normal self-protection rules would apply. In other words, the actor may resist a "peril greater than arrest."[2] Paragraph (b) is closely related to §703-306 (protection of property) which permits the use of force by the occupier or possessor of property to protect it. The actor may not use force to counter that permissible force, when it is directed at him under a claim of right to protect the property, unless he is a public officer or a person assisting him or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest, or unless he believes that he must use force to protect himself against death or serious bodily harm. A third Model Penal Code exception, dealing with a right of re-entry or recaption, has been omitted. As explained in the commentary to §703-306, it does not seem wise to deal separately with these matters. This Code treats them under the more general rules relating to protection of property.

Subsection (6) recognizes that confinement may be used as protective force. Because of the continuing nature of confinement, however, the Code requires the actor to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows he can do so safely. He has no such duty if the person is arrested, simply because the legality of a confinement will then be tested by ordinary judicial processes.

Previous Hawaii case law required that the defendant's belief be reasonable.[3] Contrary to subsection (3) of the Code, under the Hawaii cases, the defendant must retreat before he uses any force, except in those circumstances where deadly force is the only way serious felonies against persons can be prevented.[4] In the latter situations, it appears that Hawaii case law, like the Code, would require retreat if it could be accomplished with complete safety.[5] To the extent that Hawaii cases demand "imminent" danger, in the common law sense,[6] the Code represents a change in the law. Finally, the subsection on confinement is an addition to Hawaii law.

Case Notes

Defendant entitled to instruction on self-defense whenever testimony fairly raises the issue, no matter how weak. 59 H. 148, 577 P.2d 793.

Defendant is entitled to jury instructions on self-defense where there is any evidence in the record to support jury consideration of the issue. 60 H. 504, 591 P.2d 615.

In self-defense to charge of homicide, admissibility of evidence of deceased's character for violence and aggression. 61 H. 328, 603 P.2d 151.

Where trial court conspicuously omitted from its self-defense instruction any reference to the use of "force", which was essential to defendant's defense at trial, insofar as defendant expressly disputed whether defendant's use of force constituted "deadly force", and instructed jury that, as a matter of law, defendant employed "deadly force" against victim because death in fact resulted from defendant's use of force, trial court's instruction was not harmless beyond a reasonable doubt. 101 H. 377, 69 P.3d 88.

Where defendant raised the issue of self-defense, trial court did not err in concluding that prosecution proved that defendant was not acting in self-defense when defendant shot victim. 107 H. 469, 115 P.3d 648.

Defendant's claim of justification, in defense against prosecution for terroristic threatening, was established regardless of whether or not defendant used deadly force. 1 H. App. 167, 616 P.2d 229.

Evidence indicated defendant could have retreated safely; attack with baseball bat using sufficient force to break complainant's arm constituted deadly force. 2 H. App. 369, 633 P.2d 547.

Defendant did not reasonably believe that kicking person on floor was immediately necessary to protect self. 2 H. App. 577, 636 P.2d 1365.

State failed its burden of introducing substantial evidence disproving defendant's facts or proving facts negativing defendant's self-protection justification defense. 9 H. App. 435, 843 P.2d 1389.

There was substantial evidence to support trial court's conclusion that a reasonable person would not have believed that it was necessary to use deadly force on the particular occasion. 77 H. 429 (App.), 886 P.2d 766.

Trial court did not err in denying defendant's request that in addition to the choice of evils defense under §703-302, jury be instructed on the justification defenses of use of force in the protection of self and others under this section and §703-305; defendant's theory of defense was fully and adequately covered by the choice of evils instruction which the trial court gave and under the circumstances of the case, there was no reasonable possibility that the jury, which rejected defendant's choice of evils defense, might have embraced defenses based on this section and §703-305. 114 H. 507 (App.), 164 P.3d 765.

- See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/histatutes/5...x3hHm.dpuf
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#64
The heart of the issue:

Previous Hawaii case law required that the defendant's belief be reasonable.[3] Contrary to subsection (3) of the Code, under the Hawaii cases, the defendant must retreat before he uses any force, except in those circumstances where deadly force is the only way serious felonies against persons can be prevented.[4] In the latter situations, it appears that Hawaii case law, like the Code, would require retreat if it could be accomplished with complete safety.[5] To the extent that Hawaii cases demand "imminent" danger, in the common law sense,[6] the Code represents a change in the law. Finally, the subsection on confinement is an addition to Hawaii law.

allowable felonies: "(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy."

see also the section on the lesser of two evils - (703:302)

hope this helps - and puts you on notice 'Best
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#65
And always keep in mind... if a shooting in self defense goes to a jury trial, people on Punaweb are a cross section of the jury of your peers. You may think you're within the letter of the law, but a good prosecuting attorney may be able to convince a jury otherwise. Especially if some of the jurors don't feel a gun is necessary to protect their own homes. Or if the home invader is unarmed, bringing only his car keys and pocket change to a gun fight.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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#66
@Bull
Only read your post once but if I understood correctly, I'm surprised they would remove the requirement for "reasonableness". Seems to have actually weakened the laws in favor of the person using force. I don't know that I, a 2nd supporter, even like that. Maybe I misread. I'll reread later.

Although clearly stated in the text your quoted, you failed, in your commentary to emphasize the wording supporting the residents ability to remain and their lack of obligation to flee. Overall the text you quoted seemed to undermine your previous posts.

@Primal
You need all of the jurors to convict.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
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#67
quote:
Originally posted by birdmove

I am here to say, that, if someone forces their way into my home (and it did happen to me via smashing through my kitchen door), then my life (and the lives of anyone in my home) dam well IS in danger. I was armed and was able to handle the situation (Nov 1st 1976 near Seattle) because I WAS armed and was ready, willing, and able to shoot the fool. I, thankfully, did not have to, and was able to turn him over to the Police, who took him off for a short stay at the big house. Jon in Keaau/HPP



Neither Bullwinkle or POG are locals. They live here just like me. I seek no respect for people that disrespect me, sorry. You get what you give with me.

As far as the gun issue, Ive posted the laws clearly. The current updated laws. Ive said many times over, I do not wish sufferation on anyone, but I will be damned if I retreat when someone is threatening me or my family in my home.
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#68
quote:
Originally posted by lavalava

Well, actually Tom - the mainland transplants who moved here in the '70s, '80s and '90s did nothing to challenge the status quo are exactly the ones who are responsible for the many backwards situations that exist today. By embracing the 'island lifestyle' of not complaining and going with the flow - you are enablers to this 2nd world 'state'. Hawaii is really more akin to Puerto Rico than it is to any other state I have visited. There is no great push for social, political or cultural change here, just a 'leave it the way it is' mentality. Don't judge Oneself because he sees room for improvement, perhaps ask yourself why you do not.


The force is strong in this one - Yoda
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#69
so sad - denial and ignorance abounding on this issue - one can lead a horse etc - my last post on this issue
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#70
"As far as the gun issue, Ive posted the laws clearly. The current updated laws. Ive said many times over, I do not wish sufferation on anyone, but I will be damned if I retreat when someone is threatening me or my family in my home."

And if you shoot someone inside your house who has no criminal record,you will probably go to jail for a very long time !!

If you shoot someone who enters your house without asking questions and they have no record you are going to jail !!

If you shoot someone in the back,you are going to jail !!

There are better ways and they involve having security lights,neighborhood watch and other common sense solutions !!

I hope you bought a round trip ticket when you moved here.It would have saved you a lot of money !!
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